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MAXIMUM LEGAL ENGINE SIZE INTO A BEETLE?

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Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#141145
SO I hear about turbo 2180cc or V6's😀 , rotaries etc in beetles, but what is the most cc's you are legally able to put into a Beetle ??

Firstly a Standard 60's Beetle = ??
Secondly a standard 70's Beetle=??

and thirdly the all out modified 4 disc etc etc beetle = ??

Just wondering :jesus


VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#141163
Depends on what the engine number on your case is!!!! 😉
Pay your debts, CxxT

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#141165
I would think probably 1300cc for a 60s Beetle..
and 1600cc for the 70s beetle...
without engineers certificates etc...
I know everyone puts 1600s in everything

I have heard where two speed wipers are needed with larger engines.. but that may be on an engineers certificate too...
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

fatboy Disciple of Kol

603 posts · joined Nov 2002 ·

#141167
How do they equate cc's to rotary engines ?
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#141170
A 12a = 1.2lt and a 13b=1.3lt. You then have to multiply this by 1.7 (I think)

So a 12a= 2lt
13b=2.2lt

Then if it is a turbo rotary.......................................... :jesus

I think you then need to multiply it by 1.7 again ?????????


Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#141268
ok, the NSW rules are briefly described here (QLD rules are almost the same);

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi06.pdf

So, without approval you can go 15% bigger than the maximum engine offered by the manufacturer for that model, which for a later 1600 beetle is 1840cc. So a 1915 requires a blue plate (qld) or papers in nsw. I had a blue plate for my old 1915.

To go bigger than the 15% rule, you will need various safety upgrades. These are;
a) Seat belts must be installed for all seating positions. Lap/sash seat belts are required for all front
and rear outboard seating positions. Lap/sash or lap belts shall be fitted to inboard seating
positions (this requirement does not apply to small buses. No upgrading of seat belts is required
for these vehicles);
b) Windscreen washers must be fitted;
c) Two speed windscreen wipers with a fast speed of at least 45 cycles per minute and a slow speed
of at least 20 cycles per minute must be fitted. (Single speed wipers are acceptable if the speed
is 45 cycles per minute or more);
d) A windscreen demister must be fitted;
e) There must be an external mirror on the drivers side (and on the passengers side if there is not an
effective internal rear view mirror);
f) If the replacement engine has a capacity more than 45% above that of the largest optional engine
for the vehicle and the vehicle is “pre ADR 10/--”, a collapsible steering column is to be fitted;
g) Flashing turn indicator lights to be fitted at the front and rear of the vehicle if not originally
provided on the vehicle;
h) Automotive safety glass (either marked accordingly or can be shown to be safety glass) shall be
fitted for the windscreen and other windows in the vehicle.

In addition to that table, the engineer may ask for upgraded brakes or basically anything he feels is required to make the vehicle safe. When I went to the V6 my engineer wanted to see rear disc brakes, and quite frankly so did I.

You will then be limited to engine capacity as per this table;


Now most later beetles are around the 840kg mark, the exact weight depend on which VW manual or handbook your looking at. The engineer will accept any weight that looks like it comes from a reliable source.

Now assuming 840kg, you are limited to;

1 - turbo/supercharged - 840kgx2.5 = 2100cc
2 - naturally aspirated - 840kgx3.0 = 2520cc.

Hence I went for a 2500cc V6 over a 2lt turbo suby.

Notice it says multiply the rotary capacity by 2, so a 13B is a 2.6lt, a 12A is a 2.4lt. Therefore there is absolutely no way a 13B turbo is legal in a beetle (or buggy).

Also note the table says;
“Original weight” is the original (unmodified) “tare weight” of the sedan version of the vehicle model fitted
with the largest engine available for the model but without optional accessories such as air
conditioning and tow bar.
A lot of engineers are using this rule against it's original intent, and assuming that for a buggy you should use the sedan weight, which is the beetle. So people are putting 2lt turbo motors into 600kg buggies, cos the rules say not to use the modified weight.

Then of course if you build an individually constructed vehicle you can go to any engine size you like.

[Edited on 17-2-2004 by Baja Wes]
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#141592
Hi

I have a 1967 1300 glovebox owners manual. The weight quoted in it for a 1300 bug is 1638 pounds (avoirdupois) is equivalent to: 742.984 kilograms

742.984 x 3 = 2228.952 cc max NA
742.984 x 2.5 = 1857.46 cc forced induction.

My 1972 Superbug glovebox owners manual quotes 870 kgs
870 x 3 = 2610 cc NA
870 x 2.5 = 2175 cc forced induction.

Does anyone else have glovebox owners maunals so we can post the weights?

1302Steve

Secoh Fahrvergnugen

926 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#141668
in NSW the RTA tell you to get your own weigh bridge ticket, so before you do a conversion, you could always get it weighed with a full tank of fuel and 4 bags of cement 😀
If it aint broke,
Make it go faster!!

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#141681
well actually the pdf link I posted is from the RTA, and it says
“Original weight” is the original (unmodified) “tare weight” of the sedan version of the vehicle model fitted with the largest engine available for the model but without optional accessories such as air conditioning and tow bar.
Which is written so that people don't use weighbridge tickets because the vehicle can be sand bagged. For later cars the weight should come off the compliance plate, or stamped elsewhere on the vehicle.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

graham Commited Dubber

74 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·

#141716
it's only illigal if you get caught. My father use to have a type 4 2 litre in a 62 beetle never had any troubles from rta etc.
extreme dubber

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#141767
graham wrote:it's only illigal if you get caught.
Nice attitude, just don't bother insuring the car as the insurance company won't pay anything in an accident. Don't hit anything you can't afford.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Peter Leonard Moderator Volatile

1,456 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·

#141773
Baja Wes wrote:
graham wrote:it's only illigal if you get caught.
Nice attitude, just don't bother insuring the car as the insurance company won't pay anything in an accident. Don't hit anything you can't afford.
doesn't mean you can hit any volkswagens, but 😀
let sleeping dubs lie

MikeM Buggy Head

1,429 posts · joined Aug 2003 ·

#141781
graham wrote:it's only illigal if you get caught. My father use to have a type 4 2 litre in a 62 beetle never had any troubles from rta etc.
It's attitudes like that that make it harder for everyone involved. 😠

Doing things properly takes very little extra effort so why not do it properly. The rules are there to protect ME from YOU.

The rules are to stop some backyard mechanic deciding to put a 5L V8 in a 1960 Beetle without doing appropriate other mods. If there wasn't these rules he'd plonk it in, hit the throttle, and torque steer off the road into me walking down the foot path.

The rules are generally very reasonable. Heck, Wes has a fully legal 2.5L V6 in his beetle. Blue plated... done... properly. :thumb

Based on the regulations specified above a 2 litre type IV is a fully legal mod if done correctly so why not do it correctly and get the approval paper or mod plate? 🙁

Mike

PS. So if I steel your car, it's not illegal to do until I get caught??

[Edited on 19-2-2004 by MikeM]


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pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#141873
As I understand it. The maximum capacity is based on the standard capacity of the engine block.
Therefore, you can use any size engine providing the standard capacity of the engine is within the guidelines.
Accordingly, I am free to bore and stroke my engine out.
Sounds silly, but VW engines are the exception to most engineering limitations.
Where your average watercooled engine might only go out an extra 200-300cc maximum, VW engines will go out an extra 900cc.
Now when it comes to insurance, I am guessing that cars with engines of this callibure need specialist insurance anyway. To get this the company needs all the important specs of the car. Be honest and do it properly. Wes is absolutely right.

Let me give the bonehead who suggested illegal modifications a senario to think about.
Just imagine some idiot in a highly powerful, illegally modified Torana wiped out you prize Vw while your wife/girlfriend was driving it.
Firstly: His insurance company would refuse to cover the damages to your car leaving you without a car even though you weren't in the wrong.
Secondly: The insurance company might void his 3rd party personal insurance and refuse to cover your partners medical expenses, leaving you out of pocket again.
Thirdly: you can bet that a low life like that has no money you can sue out of him.

Please don't do illegal stuff. It endangers peoples lifes, livelyhood and gives petrolheads a bad name. Right!
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

lugnuts Custom Title Time!

1,070 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#142045
Looks like another one for the WPP :P

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#142069
pete wood wrote:The maximum capacity is based on the standard capacity of the engine block.
Therefore, you can use any size engine providing the standard capacity of the engine is within the guidelines.
Accordingly, I am free to bore and stroke my engine out.
I don't read the rules that way. Even if you found an engineer that did read the rules that way it is the insurance accident investigator and their legal representitive that you need to convince.

My engineer agreed a 1915 should have a blue plate, but said you'd be pretty unlucky if the insurance company found out, but it should be done. However if it had twin carbs or looked modified they are more likely to look closer.

For people like me with my car details posted on the internet, I have to be sure everything is legal as I can't argue that I didn't know that it was modified. I can't use the "oh, is it really a 1915? I thought it was a 1600 when I bought it" excuse.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#142103
After reading all the posts here and others about illegal hood jax etc... It looks like My Beetle will be stock standard.. apart from air horns!! I suppose they are illegal too??? the RTA is killing us.... next they will be measuring how far the hubcaps stand out from the wheels.... about the only thing left... or the height of Your number plate from the ground is a classic.... Who knows??? If My front number plate is on the front bumper, is it OK to have My rear number plate where it should be??? Lee?
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#143055
I think you will find that what wes is saying is that the problem is not with the RTA but with the insurance companies.
This should be no surprise, but there is an alternative, no insurance.
Personally I think this is not the better option.
But i will repeat what I said before. If your car is of the calibre that you would spend the money that a 1915 costs, the least you can do is insure it properly. This involves telling the insurance company everything about the specs of the car and having it legal to begin with.

Wes, I certainly agree with you on that point.

However, the specifics of the engine specs vary greatly as to which engineer signs your certificate. Thats the way it works in NSW. Therefore, alot of people build something that complies as far as they can see, then they shop around until they find an engineer who will certify it. You will be pleased to know, that is not the way I have operated.
However, As long as it gets a certificate, it is legal as far as the insurance companies are concerned.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

Peter Leonard Moderator Volatile

1,456 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·

#143089
can someone please tell me how you get 1915cc's?:alien
let sleeping dubs lie

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#143154
69 stroke x 94 bore

pi r sq = 47mm x 47mm x 3.14 = 6939.778172mmsq.

6939.778172mmsq x 69 = 478844.6939mm cubed.

478844.6939mm cubed x 4 cyl = 1915378.775mm cubed = 1915.378775cc

Now I need an asprin 🙁


Stan's 1916s are just slightly bigger, that's why they're more powerful.

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#143260
pete wood wrote:However, As long as it gets a certificate, it is legal as far as the insurance companies are concerned.
yes I agree Pete. What it actually means is you should be ok, but the person that approved it will be in a lot of trouble.

But my point was, if you have an unapproved 1915 engine, then you don't have a certificate. So you can't tell the insurance company that it was approved, cos it wasn't. You can say "I asked billy joe if it needed to be approved and he said no it doesn't". They will either say, no you didn't, or they will ask billy joe and he will say no I didn't so he doesn't get in trouble. Either way your excuse won't work. That was my point, if that makes sense 🙂
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#143270
and slightly off-track but a similar legal-insurance company subject, tyre size.

In qld the rules say, and I quote
The maximum tyre width must not be more than 1.3 times wider
than the vehicle manufacturer’s widest optional tyre.
Now the person that wrote the tyre rule didn't understand the english language in a legal sense. Note it says, "1.3 times wider".

Legally, that means for a 165 tyre, you can make it 1.3x165 = 214.5mm wider than the original tyre, bringing the total width to 165+214.5=379.5mm wide.

What they meant to write was "1.3 times the width of the original tyre".

But they didn't, so in QLD it is legally impossible to get prosecuted for having illegally wide tyres (unless you fit wider than 380mm). I have this on good authority.

Then the only other part of the rules to worry about is "The tyre and rim must not foul wheel arches or suspension components under any conditions. Steering limit stops should not be adjusted to reduce the turning circle in order to allow the fitting of the tyres and rims."

Comply with that and your sweet.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

graham Commited Dubber

74 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·

#143592
I think you took what I said out of context. I agree with the rules and agree that appropriate mods need to be done before you drive on the road. My car has been modified when I transfered the rego from nsw to qld was not required by qld tpt. to have mod plates fitted. After much discussion with the police when they pulled me up found out that needed mod plates and went and had it done. The mods that I have are 4 wheel disc brakes and bigger motor all of which was the same as when I had it regod so I went and had it done. A bloke I work with has a cortina with a 351 in it the cops and qld tpt dont even want to know about it. What I was trying to say is You speak to one guy who says yes you do and another says no that why so many people just do it and worry later on. I have seen this first hand after doing some tow truck work how many people have mods done have a smash take the car home and take the mods off put it to original and get away with it. eg. Towed a bloke who rolled his hilux surf. Bigger tyres and a lift kit illegal. Towed him home and he changed everything back to original got a call to pick it up and took it to an assessing centre who sent it to auction, they didn't even bat an eyelid at the car. Thats what I meant when I said its only illegal if you get caught. Sorry if this offended anyone it was not meant to be that way.
Graham
extreme dubber