Skip to content
Aussieveedubbers

Aftermarket EFI - cont\'d

2 likes
Share Share on Facebook Share on X Share on Reddit
Log in to reply

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#227259
hmmm, might have to look into fitting one, It might just make the pump last a bit longer.... I'll see what they are worth....

I spend yesterday attempting to tune the engine, eventually having success! Something worth noting (and not mentioned anywhere in the documentation that is supplied with the ECU) is that the ECU doesn't know how many cylinders the engine that it is attached to has, so it assumes that it is an 8 cylinder initially - this plays havoc with the tuning. It will, after some run time, work out how many cylinders it is working with and re-set itself, but until it does, expect it to not want to make any sense whilst you are trying to do the initial set-up. Once it had this issue out of the way, it ran perfectly!

For those of you considering the Delco - the VW engine will start and run OK on the Camira calabration! I had to change the acceleration and deceleration enrichement sensitivity (make it less sensitive) before it would idle, but from there it's all OK. Obviously it runs rich in some spots and lean in others, but with the automatic VE update function turned on, the ECU soon sorts these out for you. I imagine that the maps will be much closer to where they need to be once I can place a load on the engine as the auto tune function requires you to hold the revs and vacuum steady in any one place on the map for more than 3 seconds before it makes the update - this is quite difficult to do on a VW engine with no load on it. The engine is very quick to respond to throttle movement and the vaccum levels fluctuate a little, even when the revs are steady and the throttle is held as still as it can be on a running engine. Still, with that said, the changes to the original (Camira) map that have been achieved with the auto VE update are already noticable 🙂

Something else of notice is that, my Brother tells me now, the test engine is actually not the stock standard 1600 that I thought it was, but is actually a 1641 with a mild cam in it (thanks dude, that makes things make a little more sense!), still even with this engine, I have had to make no changes to the fuel map at idle to get it to idle smoothly (previously, with a carb it had a bit of 'cam stumble' at idle). Even my brother was surprised how smoothly it idles! Should be interesting to see how smooth we can get the idle on an engine with a bigger cam!

There are still a few things that I want to change about this system, however I really 'need' to get the bodywork finished so that I can drive this car and see what the FI is all about, so the work on the FI system will probably stop at this point, at least until I have the body ready to go back on the pan.

I would be interested to see how everyone else that is putting together a EFI system is going - and I hope that all the problems I have had, mistakes I have made and stupid questions that I have asked are of some benifit to others. 😀

This system isn't finished (it probably never will be as I want to experiment with different things) - I will let you know happens as it happens right here!

Thanks for your help guys - its a great feeling knowing that I have finally conquered it. Can't wait to drive it now....

R 🙂
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#227281
congratulations in getting it sorted!!!!!! Do you have pictures of your surge tank and the location?? I'm about to go EFI on the Manx and can't decide if i should put the tank at the rear or front.....any problems encountered with the tank etc etc?? any info would be good. Thanx
tssnq.com.au

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#227307
Mick,

My surge tank is mounted beside the gearbox and is fed from the main tank by a low pressure pump. The return from the fuel rail (via the fuel regulator) is also plumbed into the surge tank - basically the same design as Wes' set-up - the only difference being that I am using an externally mounted high pressure pump (and my tank is at the rear of the vehicle).

Couple of reasons for mounting it at the back:

1) You only need to run one, small diameter return line the length of the car - not two larger diameter lines

2) The pumps are closer to the Battery = less wiring length = less voltage drop = less chance of voltage related pump issues.

On a vehicle as small as a Beetle or Buggy, reason 2 is not really an issue as long as you run decent size wiring.

I wll post pics of my tank and design as soon as I can get my digital camera back from my wife (she's starting a photography course this evening so the camera has gone to work with her!). Probably tomorrow morning....

R 🙂
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#227312
Yeh,no worries thanks for that. I'm not keen on running a high pressure hose through the car and was contemplating mounting the surge tank at the rear. My tank setup is similar to Wes's also.I also have an external pump which was why i was interested in where you shoved everything!!!!:thumb
tssnq.com.au

Midlife crisis Nartispuddlejumper, Bureau of Toxicity

2,282 posts · joined May 2003 ·

#227318
Great news to hear that it is run Ross.
It will be good to see t on the road

Marc
If you can't laugh at yourself you can't laugh at anyone else! Because life is to short not to LAUGH

Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#227340
I'll add my congratulations to the list - WELL DONE 🙂 !


Though like you said, the proof will be in the driving. Just whack a seat, fuel tank and steering column on it, and lair ass around the block for a while 🙂

you know you want to........

tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#227405
AdrianH wrote:in it it states " Some however choose to use a small pump to feed the swirl pot and run the fuel return line back to the swirl pot rather than to the fuel tank. I do not believe this is a good idea for two reasons: unless the swirl pot is fairly large it can run dry at high engine loads and high RPM, and second, at lower engine loadings the fuel will get hot circulating in a closed loop and the engine could become dangerously lean"
Adrian
Ahhhh, sorry dude, my bad.
I didnt read the punctuation on the post carefully enough and i assumed you were actually adding the bit about "not being a good idea" blah blah..........errrrrhhhhmmmm.

Unless the actual quote is innacurate, a typo or such, then the writer is sadly mistaken as the opposite of what he states is largely true.

L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....

tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#227408
Ratty

Well done M8.

Perhaps a "not see the wood for the trees" syndrome.

You will never see a carby as useful for anything but the bin once you nut your system.

Got any fingernails or hair left:P

L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#227619
Though like you said, the proof will be in the driving. Just whack a seat, fuel tank and steering column on it, and lair ass around the block for a while

you know you want to........
...er...actually, that was what I was thinking of doing...Hmmm, I know where all that stuff is, shouldn't be too hard.....

I was thinking of, at least, preparing the floorpan for our clubs show in a couple of months - just enough so that it can be driven through the carpark to the display area.... Could generate a little interest, if nothing else.

Perhaps a "not see the wood for the trees" syndrome.

You will never see a carby as useful for anything but the bin once you nut your system.

Got any fingernails or hair left
Yep, I think that you have hit the nail on the head when you say "couldn't see the wood for the trees"! :thumb

...I already see carbys that way - I have since one of my friends and club members allowed me to drive his TIII Notch with aftermarket EFI....

...fingernails are still OK, but the hair is almost gone :thumb

Mick, I have included a few pics on the bottom of this post so that you can see how my surge tank fits, however as the body is not on the pan at the moment, and I have been swapping and changing the hose locations at the surge tank whilst I was trying to fix the last problem, nothing is in its final position.

I plan on running the supply line to the HP pump in the opposite direction to the way it is currently facing so that I can clamp the HP pump to the torsion tube on the passenger side of the car, with the output end of the pump facing the gearbox. I will then mount the filter on the gearbox fork before the line goes through the rear engine tinware and on to the fuel rail.

The return line will come back across the engine (on top of the supply line, behind the alt. stand.) and exit the engine area through the rear engine tinware, beside the supply line. It will return into the top of the surge tank.

I am using the original steel fuel line through the tunnel to supply the low pressure pump and filter, which enters the surge tank though the bottom (although if you haven't had your tank made yet, it could enter through the top - most commercial tanks are like this. I just had a spare hose fitting on the bottom, so that is what I used!).

The return back to the main tank uses the same sized line as the original supply line and is plumbed into the top of the tank. I haven't yet decided where I will mount the low pressure pump, but it will probably be clamped to the underneath of the parcel tray, beside the surge tank, once the body and pan are back together.

All the pumps will be rubber mounted so that I minimise the pump noise in the car (the VL pumps come with a rubber sleeve so this won't be too hard 🙂 ) I will have to manufacture a couple of mounting brackets, but this won't be difficult.

I will begin to mount things when the body is almost ready to go back on. In this way, I will be able to cut hoses to the correct length, rather than have to guess and replace/shorten them over and over. As you can see from the photos, the two chunks of wood and a cable tie are doing a great job of holding everything still at the moment! 😀

What engine and ECU are you planning on using?

I have run my engine for around half and hour every day so far and it is getting smoother and smoother every time - got to love the auto tune function! ... and what about the instant start - hot or cold - Yipee! 😎

Hope these pics are of some help...

R 🙂


Pic 1: Underneath of surge tank - high pressure pump to the right of the picture - this is a Jap pump with an anti back flow valve fitted to it - the high pressure hose exits at right angles to the pump, making fitting in my chosen location much easier - not bad for free!


Pic 2: Top of surge tank - low pressure pump (purchased for $20 at the Toowoomba Swap) on the right of the picture


Pic 3: Fuel tank connections - just in case you were interested! :thumb


[Edited on 2-9-2004 by ratty 63]
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#227630
Hi

Looking good. To keep things simple I just ran an EFI filter before the LP pump, I dont like the idea of pushon fittings on the HP side.

Steve

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#227676
Thanks for the pics!!!! I will most likely run my pot to the rear also...with the low pressure pump feeding through 10 mm line from the front under the fuel tank,through the tunnel to the surge tank. The return line will also be 10 mm to the bottom of the tank. I am undecided on which ECU I will run at the moment as I have 2 to choose from. The engine is a 1916......will start building the car tomorrow night and will have pictures up in a week or so of the work in progress. Keep up the good work!!1












k
tssnq.com.au

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#227688
Mick H wrote:I am undecided on which ECU I will run at the moment as I have 2 to choose from.
The AUTRONIC with the autotune features seems to be the pick of the aftermarket ones

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#227692
56astro wrote:
Mick H wrote:I am undecided on which ECU I will run at the moment as I have 2 to choose from.
The AUTRONIC with the autotune features seems to be the pick of the aftermarket ones

But I don't have an Autronic. I have a Motec and a Wolf plus the Webber one I got with my kit....have not decided which one to use....:jesus
tssnq.com.au

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#227699
DOH!!

sorry, didn't know that
🙁

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#227706
56astro wrote:DOH!!

sorry, didn't know that
🙁

Thats OK...so you are also Pobjoy powered....can't wait to feel the difference in performance. Ratty63...bet yer busting your nuts to go for a drive with the EFI:alien
tssnq.com.au

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#227709
...your not wrong - just went and dragged out a front end and stripped it down - needs new bushes - will get that sorted out and painted ASAP and get the brakes organised .... who needs a body!!?! :duh

R 🙂
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#227718
Mick H wrote:...so you are also Pobjoy powered....can't wait to feel the difference in performance.
Yep,

give the Kads the flick eventually,
new Al case,
044s with twin plugs,
EFI

Schweet daily driver.

Might even contemplate nickies and forged slugs !!

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#227948
glad it all worked out in the end. It will be very satisfying to drive. 🙂

Still, a subaru conversion would've been easier :P
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#227981
Baja Wes wrote:glad it all worked out in the end. It will be very satisfying to drive. 🙂

Still, a subaru conversion would've been easier :P

I would have to agree....and in my case a lot cheaper as well....:o
tssnq.com.au

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#234685
Any updates Ratty?

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#237032
Updates, um, OK....

Sorry, I have been getting quite involved with finishing off the rest of the car so that I can drive it and get a really good idea about how it all works.

I have still taken a bit of time to fiddle with the setting and maps but nothing too serious. I have also set up the ECU to auto update - and it is working fine! The engine is running noticably smoother every time I start it and the graph produced from the O2 sensor readings isn't fluctuating anywhere near as much as it did when I first started all this - of course this is all done with very little load on the engine (only the gearbox - not wheels yet), so I have really only started working on the tip of the iceburg...

I still find it amazing that it starts so easliy and runs so smoothly, regardless of the engine temp.

So far my longest continuous run for this engine/system has been just over 2 hours and this was whilst I was making adjustments to the maps (read: fiddling :thumb ), but I only have one minor issue to comment on:

Whilst the engine was running (it had been running for around 10 mins) it suddenly quit - like someone had disconnected the coil as the fuel pumps were still running. I had my PC connnected to the ECU, so I had a look at the guage screen to see what had caused this to happen and everything appeared normal, so I pushed the start button again. The engine would start momentarily, then stall again - like it was too lean/not enough fuel...

I went right back through the entire set-up - wiring. fuel pressure, ECU settings, etc - and nothing showed up as being incorrect...strange.

So I decided to up the amount of fuel being delivered to the engine by changing the fuel map - even with the settings at 100% (maximum fuel) it still sounded too lean. I reset the settings back to what they had been and tried a different tack.

When setting up the Delco, you have to tell the ECU what your engine size and injector efficiency rate are so that it can calculate the base pulse rate. If you increase the base pulse rate, you increase the amount of fuel injected accross the entire fuel map, so, considering this, I decided to up the engine size in the BPC calc to see what happens. I initally uped it to the maximum setting (2000cc per cylinder = 8litre 4 cylinder:duh ) and hit the start button - bingo it started and ran very rich, so I slowly decreased the cylinder size until it appeared to be running OK - it all settled out at around 800cc/cyl = 3.2litre engine .... not exactly correct!

Not sure why this was happening, I began to ask questions on the Kalmaker forum to get some answers, but unfortunatly no-one had seen this happen before. I also noticed that the ECU thought that it had a 8 cylinder resistor pack fitted (res packs are used for limp home mode I believe).

Then, after a couple of days of running fine with these settings it stalled again. This time it restarted OK, but was now running way too rich - I began to reduce the cyl size again and the engine settled down as the size reached 412cc/cyl - which, strangely enough, is correct for this engine! The ECU now thinks that it is fitted with a 4 cyl res pack and has been running fine ever since ... still not sure what caused to to do this, but I suspect that it could be that I have not earthed the case of the ECU as the manual tells me to do (it should earth through the mounting bracket which is not yet fitted to the vehicle). I will keep you up to date as I find out more, but right now I am dieing to get this car finished and go for a drive.....:bounce

How is everyone else going with their projects?

I hope to have my web site updated with all the latest info soon - too much to do and so little time!

R
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#237163
gathering hardware :thumb

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

Midlife crisis Nartispuddlejumper, Bureau of Toxicity

2,282 posts · joined May 2003 ·

#237171
Just think of the fun of the first drive
If you can't laugh at yourself you can't laugh at anyone else! Because life is to short not to LAUGH

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#237370
arrggg! Everything has changed colour!! Looks cool though!

56Astro, what equipment are you thinking of using? I'm just interested to see what others are thinking/doing.

Midlife Crisis, did you fix the issue with your factory TIII injection (I know, not exactly on the topic but close 🙂 ). If so, what was it?

What do you reckon, should I try to get just the floorpan (with engine and box) to our show in November for ppl to look at, or should I just keep plugging along with the bodywork until it is all done, then show it off😎 ?

R 🙂
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

Midlife crisis Nartispuddlejumper, Bureau of Toxicity

2,282 posts · joined May 2003 ·

#237440
keep going and get it all done.
No still chasing the hunting problem.

Marc
If you can't laugh at yourself you can't laugh at anyone else! Because life is to short not to LAUGH

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#237550
ratty 63 wrote:56Astro, what equipment are you thinking of using? I'm just interested to see what others are thinking/doing.
R 🙂
Bottom end for an EFI 2332.
Not anything ballastic but very very streetable.

Looking at very good stuff on the STF.

Might have to do a mock-up of the plenums in PVC, cause we don't have access to great options with respect to Al welders int he country like some city folk. :duh

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa