seagull Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
4,979 posts · joined Dec 2003 ·
I was told Subaru ?
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake
who built the first boxer motor ?
68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --
11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
The 4 cylinder 4 stroke air cooled Boxer engine as used in the Beetle was the design of Franz Reimspeiss , a 33 year old design engineer working for Porsche... in 1934... He designed the engine in 48 hours....
Previously, Porsche had used many different engines, 2 cylinder 4 stroke & 2 stroke water cooled, 3 cylinder radial engine plus others, the early model prototypes were powered by a variation of the 1912 Austro-Daimler aircraft engine Porsche had designed...
Reimspeiss received a RM100 bonus for His work and the first prototype was up & running in 1935.... His Cars with these engines were then tested 750kms a day for 50,000kms
by the RDA the Nazi Labour Front... these engines were also then fitted to earlier prototypes for testing...
All these early engines were fitted with electric fuel pumps but they were troublesome, and mechanical pumps were then adopted... Also all the early engines had twin Inlet ports but these were changed to single port in production...
Lee
Previously, Porsche had used many different engines, 2 cylinder 4 stroke & 2 stroke water cooled, 3 cylinder radial engine plus others, the early model prototypes were powered by a variation of the 1912 Austro-Daimler aircraft engine Porsche had designed...
Reimspeiss received a RM100 bonus for His work and the first prototype was up & running in 1935.... His Cars with these engines were then tested 750kms a day for 50,000kms
by the RDA the Nazi Labour Front... these engines were also then fitted to earlier prototypes for testing...
All these early engines were fitted with electric fuel pumps but they were troublesome, and mechanical pumps were then adopted... Also all the early engines had twin Inlet ports but these were changed to single port in production...
Lee
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- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
seagull Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
4,979 posts · joined Dec 2003 ·
yes Lee but was he the first ?
good reading :beer
good reading :beer
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake
68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --
11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
I believe Subaru [Fuji Heavy Industries] just copied the Volkswagen engine design and water cooled it...
Nissan [Datsun] copied the old A engine from BMC - British Motor Corporation...
Toyota copied the old 6 cylinder GM Chevrolet straight six engine for the Land Cruiser...
Mitsubishi designed and built one of the best Air Craft in the 2nd World War with their Zeros....
I don't who they copied from???
Nissan [Datsun] copied the old A engine from BMC - British Motor Corporation...
Toyota copied the old 6 cylinder GM Chevrolet straight six engine for the Land Cruiser...
Mitsubishi designed and built one of the best Air Craft in the 2nd World War with their Zeros....
I don't who they copied from???
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --
11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
I don't think the Japanese actually made any cars before the war....
I believe they made motor cycles etc...
Mitsubishi was around making Zeros.. maybe cars & trucks but I believe all the other car companies were started after the war.... I have lots of books on Porsche & VWs but nothing on Japanese....
Lee
I believe they made motor cycles etc...
Mitsubishi was around making Zeros.. maybe cars & trucks but I believe all the other car companies were started after the war.... I have lots of books on Porsche & VWs but nothing on Japanese....
Lee
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
seagull Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
4,979 posts · joined Dec 2003 ·
Thanks Lee
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake
Desert Moose Cut Cut Cut
2,098 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·
Subaru's history actually starts with an aircraft company established in 1917. Known as Nakajima Aircraft Co. Ltd. it's predecessor, Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. (FHI), established in 1953 is the company behind Subaru. Subaru's history may extend back to 1917 or more so to 1953.
In February 1954, FHI announced its prototype passenger car called the P-1 or Subaru 1500.?
The P-1, named the Subaru 1500 the following year, used the first Japanese-manufactured monocoque body.
This passenger car provided excellent riding comfort and driving stability with its front-wheel wishbone-type independent suspension; a coil spring and double-action oil damper combination, and rear-wheel rigid axle suspension with a three-leaf spring and double-action oil damper combination.
Unfortunately, sales had to be suspended because of difficulties in funding the factory equipment and sales network.?
Nevertheless, this vehicle proved to be of great value in the later developments of the Subaru 360 and Subaru 1000.
P-1 (Subaru 1500) Specifications:
Body:
Overall (length x width x height) : 4,235mm x 1,670mm x 1,520mm
Vehicle weight : 1,178kg
Engine:
Type : Water-cooled, 4-cycle OHV, 4-cylinder
Bore x stroke : 79.4mm x 75.0mm
Engine displacement : 1,485cc
Compression ratio : 7.2
But to I think the 1000 was the first boxer engine. All this info is copy paste off web sites so i'm not sayin its right or wrong just bringing the info forward....😉
In February 1954, FHI announced its prototype passenger car called the P-1 or Subaru 1500.?
The P-1, named the Subaru 1500 the following year, used the first Japanese-manufactured monocoque body.
This passenger car provided excellent riding comfort and driving stability with its front-wheel wishbone-type independent suspension; a coil spring and double-action oil damper combination, and rear-wheel rigid axle suspension with a three-leaf spring and double-action oil damper combination.
Unfortunately, sales had to be suspended because of difficulties in funding the factory equipment and sales network.?
Nevertheless, this vehicle proved to be of great value in the later developments of the Subaru 360 and Subaru 1000.
P-1 (Subaru 1500) Specifications:
Body:
Overall (length x width x height) : 4,235mm x 1,670mm x 1,520mm
Vehicle weight : 1,178kg
Engine:
Type : Water-cooled, 4-cycle OHV, 4-cylinder
Bore x stroke : 79.4mm x 75.0mm
Engine displacement : 1,485cc
Compression ratio : 7.2
But to I think the 1000 was the first boxer engine. All this info is copy paste off web sites so i'm not sayin its right or wrong just bringing the info forward....😉
kombikim disfunctionally capable
1,521 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·
a boxer motor is just a fancy name for an engine where the cylinders are horizontally opposed , these motors have been around since at least the start of the 20th century, their first benifits being that they could be easily fitted under the floor of the vehicle, Subaru did not copy the VW motor & make it watercooled, they just built designed & built another horizontally opposed motor . The British Jowett company built horizontally opposed motors from 1906 until late 1954, the horizontilly oppsed twin in it's Braford model continued essentially unchanged throughout this period, the horizontally opposed 4 was introduced in 1936.
The 1957 Goliath 1100, a German car also badged as the Borgward or Hansa 1100 also had a water cooled pushrod flat 4 driving the front wheels & was very similar to the Subaru Motor,
there were makes of Japanese cars before World War 11, probably the most prominent being Datsun.Nissan built their first production car, the Dat in 1914 , the name Datsun first appearing towards the end of 1932
Whew
The 1957 Goliath 1100, a German car also badged as the Borgward or Hansa 1100 also had a water cooled pushrod flat 4 driving the front wheels & was very similar to the Subaru Motor,
there were makes of Japanese cars before World War 11, probably the most prominent being Datsun.Nissan built their first production car, the Dat in 1914 , the name Datsun first appearing towards the end of 1932
Whew
Please, I need drivers side window regulator (winder mechanism) for my '54
theverybigtallman Wolfsburg Wizard
405 posts · joined Aug 2004 ·
i thought the first rad going subaru was the 360? 360cc 2stroke, 2cyl?
in jap tradition, subaru took the boxer design and made it better. watercooled, intercooled, turbo, efi, valve control timing etc. mazda did the same with the rotary.
in jap tradition, subaru took the boxer design and made it better. watercooled, intercooled, turbo, efi, valve control timing etc. mazda did the same with the rotary.
early 60s beetle for sale - ex bush basher - spares - $100 or offers
theverybigtallman Wolfsburg Wizard
405 posts · joined Aug 2004 ·
meant road going
early 60s beetle for sale - ex bush basher - spares - $100 or offers
Warrenm Wolfsburg Wizard
466 posts · joined Aug 2004 ·
Hi,
Flat engines, boxer engines, horizontally opposed engines etc have been around as designs since 1700s. Not many were built until late 19th century and were usually gas powered.
Even Ferrari got the message.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's a Ferrari, it's equipped with a V-12 engine. By 1969, this had become as commonly accepted a fact as E=mc2 or peanut butter sticks to the roof of your mouth. In fact, the major factor that separated the Dino line of cars from "true" Ferraris was the fact they were not equipped with a V-12. (Instead V-6 powerplants provided motivation for the attractive mid-engine two-seaters.)
As the Seventies dawned Mauro Forghieri, one of Ferrari's most talented engineers, convinced Enzo Ferrari that a horizontally opposed 12-cylinder engine had some advantages over the V-12 for racing. Given the go-ahead, he immediately proved correct, as Ferrari flat-12's were among the most successful racing engines of the 1970s. By the time the decade was done, they had captured four Formula One world driving championships and four world manufacturers' championships.
Of course, the horizontally opposed engine configuration is almost as old as multi-cylinder internal combustion engines. Several engines of this type were produced before the turn of the century, and later both Porsche and Volkswagen became famous for their "flat" engines as did BMW with its motorcycles. Two benefits of the so-called "boxer" design are low center of gravity and inherent, push-me/pull-me balance. In most passenger cars, these advantages were offset by the obvious disadvantage: enormous width, particularly when the cylinders were topped with complex overhead cams.
Warren
Flat engines, boxer engines, horizontally opposed engines etc have been around as designs since 1700s. Not many were built until late 19th century and were usually gas powered.
Even Ferrari got the message.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's a Ferrari, it's equipped with a V-12 engine. By 1969, this had become as commonly accepted a fact as E=mc2 or peanut butter sticks to the roof of your mouth. In fact, the major factor that separated the Dino line of cars from "true" Ferraris was the fact they were not equipped with a V-12. (Instead V-6 powerplants provided motivation for the attractive mid-engine two-seaters.)
As the Seventies dawned Mauro Forghieri, one of Ferrari's most talented engineers, convinced Enzo Ferrari that a horizontally opposed 12-cylinder engine had some advantages over the V-12 for racing. Given the go-ahead, he immediately proved correct, as Ferrari flat-12's were among the most successful racing engines of the 1970s. By the time the decade was done, they had captured four Formula One world driving championships and four world manufacturers' championships.
Of course, the horizontally opposed engine configuration is almost as old as multi-cylinder internal combustion engines. Several engines of this type were produced before the turn of the century, and later both Porsche and Volkswagen became famous for their "flat" engines as did BMW with its motorcycles. Two benefits of the so-called "boxer" design are low center of gravity and inherent, push-me/pull-me balance. In most passenger cars, these advantages were offset by the obvious disadvantage: enormous width, particularly when the cylinders were topped with complex overhead cams.
Warren
kombikim disfunctionally capable
1,521 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·
that is quite simply it, the configuration is nothing special to VW it was probably chosen because of it's shorter length & low centre of gravity . Subaru did not copy or improve on it any more that anybody copies & improves anything else, if anything the original Subaru transaxle & power unit was very similar to the Goliath 1100 transaxle & power unit. Subaru add ons such as turbo, injection etc developed in parallel with the same fitments on inline & V motors & are nothing to do with the cylinder configuration. Indeed as regards turbocharging a boxer motor, The Corvair turbocharger option became available in 1962, & as such was the 1st turbocharged production car .
Please, I need drivers side window regulator (winder mechanism) for my '54
Che Castro ankle straps
1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Don't all the subaru engines have 5 main bearings instead of 3 anyway?
I think the Mitsubishi Zero was an original design though lee, not everything Japanese is a copy of something else ! 🙂
I think the Mitsubishi Zero was an original design though lee, not everything Japanese is a copy of something else ! 🙂
Jon
squizy Thinking about another dub...maybe
4,082 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·
I wonder where Citroen fits into this equation?
Squiz....
Squiz....
Desert Moose Cut Cut Cut
2,098 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·
Anyway..... who gives a s#it.:thumb
Vw is the best by far :P :P :P :P:vader
Vw is the best by far :P :P :P :P:vader
ancientbugger Custom Title Time!
1,986 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·
A lot of alfas had/have flat 4 engines
Warrenm Wolfsburg Wizard
466 posts · joined Aug 2004 ·
Citroen were also pioneers in flat engine technology-even using BMW motorcycle engines before the war and copying the design.squizy wrote:I wonder where Citroen fits into this equation?
Squiz....
Warren
ancientbugger Custom Title Time!
1,986 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·
Now I'm not certain of this but I think the very early Saabs may have had flat 4s- i know there's a link between vws and saabs if only a small one?
Bazza
Bazza
Warrenm Wolfsburg Wizard
466 posts · joined Aug 2004 ·
Porsche designed a "hybrid" petrol/electric car for the World Exhibition in 1900 using a flat four motor to drive electiric motors iin wheel hubs. There was even a 4WD version.
The 'Electric Chaise' was a sensation, and many orders were taken, but far from resting on his laurels Porsche began to tackle the problems that have bedevilled electric-car designers ever since - the weight of the batteries and the limited range. Within a year or so Porsche had come up with 'Aunt Eulalia' – the nickname given to the first of his petrol-electric 'Mixte' hybrids that were to bring young Ferdinand to the attention of the great and wonderful, including the Archduke, and probably sow the seeds for his future love-affair with flat-fours.
Semper Vivus, meaning 'always alive' was the official name used by the company for the new car and it employed an Austro-Daimler flat-four to drive an alternator, which provided the current for the 17.5 horsepower hub-mounted motors. These vehicles could sustain speeds of up to 55 mph and were so powerful that some were constructed as trucks and fire engines – one of which was to become the first motorised appliance to be used by the London Fire Brigade.
Perhaps Toyota and Honda may catch up-
Warren
The 'Electric Chaise' was a sensation, and many orders were taken, but far from resting on his laurels Porsche began to tackle the problems that have bedevilled electric-car designers ever since - the weight of the batteries and the limited range. Within a year or so Porsche had come up with 'Aunt Eulalia' – the nickname given to the first of his petrol-electric 'Mixte' hybrids that were to bring young Ferdinand to the attention of the great and wonderful, including the Archduke, and probably sow the seeds for his future love-affair with flat-fours.
Semper Vivus, meaning 'always alive' was the official name used by the company for the new car and it employed an Austro-Daimler flat-four to drive an alternator, which provided the current for the 17.5 horsepower hub-mounted motors. These vehicles could sustain speeds of up to 55 mph and were so powerful that some were constructed as trucks and fire engines – one of which was to become the first motorised appliance to be used by the London Fire Brigade.
Perhaps Toyota and Honda may catch up-
Warren
The_Bronze. Minister of Volkswagenism
1,922 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·
An interesting thread. Very enjoyable.
Bronze.
Bronze.
Bronze.
Rathmines, Lake Macquarie, NSW.
Rathmines, Lake Macquarie, NSW.
kombikim disfunctionally capable
1,521 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·
Early Saabs had the DKW upright 2stroke 3 cylinder motor Built under license, DKW being part of Auto Union, which eventually became VW, they then went to the V4 Ford motor, only seen in Aust in the early Ford Transits
they then went onto using the Triumph Dolimite motors in the Saab 99 eventually designing their own motor.
Citroen did use the boxer motor in huge numbers , primarily in the 2CV & GS
Alfa built the Alfasud with a flat 4 water cooled motor, this later evolved into the 33
the last of the big Lancias (before Fiat took them the over) also had a flat 4 motor , a major departure from their traditional narrow V motors
so the flat boxer horizontally opposed motor is absolutely no big deal
they then went onto using the Triumph Dolimite motors in the Saab 99 eventually designing their own motor.
Citroen did use the boxer motor in huge numbers , primarily in the 2CV & GS
Alfa built the Alfasud with a flat 4 water cooled motor, this later evolved into the 33
the last of the big Lancias (before Fiat took them the over) also had a flat 4 motor , a major departure from their traditional narrow V motors
so the flat boxer horizontally opposed motor is absolutely no big deal
Please, I need drivers side window regulator (winder mechanism) for my '54
Warrenm Wolfsburg Wizard
466 posts · joined Aug 2004 ·
Funny about SAAB using the Triumph motor- Triumph actually had to buy the rights back to manufacture for the TR7:P
Warren
"they then went onto using the Triumph Dolimite motors in the Saab 99 eventually designing their own motor.
also had a flat 4 motor , a major departure from their traditional narrow V motors"
so the flat boxer horizontally opposed motor is absolutely no big deal [/quote]
Warren
"they then went onto using the Triumph Dolimite motors in the Saab 99 eventually designing their own motor.
also had a flat 4 motor , a major departure from their traditional narrow V motors"
so the flat boxer horizontally opposed motor is absolutely no big deal [/quote]
BLUE_62 Wolfsburg Wizard
513 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
Amazing the ways cars are developed. Regardless of who designed what and who uses what all i know if that the VW uses a simple and effective flat 4 layout that works well and has worked well for decades. If it had not worked well they would not have used it for so many years.
Thats my 2 bucks worth anyway.
Either end of the scale. Certainly an interesting post. 😎
Thats my 2 bucks worth anyway.
Either end of the scale. Certainly an interesting post. 😎
Stanley I guess the reward is in the doing of it
4,523 posts · joined Mar 2003 ·
Not forgetting the Corvair engine which was an interchange option for vw's years back. It to was a boxer.