Boozer wrote:penguin wrote:This is aimed at no one in particular.
To all those who are sitting there feeling that we are being duped, are fleeceing our own people, or whatever.
Fuc* off!!
I make no apologies, and if the mod's want to censor me, so be it.
As far as our medial system is concerned, I have mother who has stage two alzhiemers, and for those who don't l know, that means that on a good day, she knows who I am, on a bad day, well lets now go there.
So thats where I am coming from. I know that she if she was who she was before she forgot, and I, would never argue with the spending of australian money on this sort of thing. Who's looking after our neighbours patients? at least ours have access to some sort of medical system. Who the F* are you to talk about our countries health system? My family are looking after her at home so far, why? because we love her, and we can, regardless of what has happened so far. Who can look after the sick of our neighbours? no one, why, because they are DEAD!
Yes, I am in the military, want to talk to me about it? face to face? I don't give a rats arse who or what you look like, I'll speak to any of you right now, right here! want to hit me or anything, I don't give a !
Do you wonder where your next drink of water is coming from?????
wondered if your house will fall on you or your family?
pull your heads out of your arse and look about. We are one of the richest and luckiest countries on earth. I am not just talking about money here, we are truely a very lucky country.
who are you to day that we should not help out fellow man?????? I bet if you had broken limbs and a few other injuries that you would be asking for help.
I don't give a f* about the politics, sure thats involved, when has it never been involved???
Who introduced hecs? who introduced gst? labour followed by liberal
why did they do it? because they though they had to.
Do I feel like I am useless at this point in time. YES! why? because me and my guys are the ones who produce power, buildings and clean drinkable water. Why do we feel useless? because we can see that we are needed and we aren't able to be in there helping.
Just be grateful to whatever/whoever you believe in that this didn't happen to us. Would anyone of you give something up for a member of your family? So what makes Indonesians/Thais/Sri Lankans/Indians/Swedes/Germans/Brits/French/etc different? want to bet that we don't treat other countries nationals in our med centres????
As for money, who cares if there are political undertones to giving it to Indonesia. When has there ever been a free lunch?? Never.
If it helps people in their time of need and makes our country a little less the enemy in the eyes of the Indonesian people, then who will complain?
if it just helps people in their time of need, then feel happy and have that to travel with you with your karma.
I agree with that. We ARE very lucky. just imagine if we were the ones to be hit and cop 70,000-whatever dead. We would expect everyone to come to our aid. Why shouldn't we help them? Two thumbs up Penguin for having the guts to say what should be said!
u know whats weird i live near the water and ever since i was young i always have had bad dreams about tsunamis washing away my house and family:cry:cry:cry
its sad it came true and washed away our neighbours
* Sigh *
sometimes it all just seem too much.
B.
Bronze.
Rathmines, Lake Macquarie, NSW.
Judging by the number of responses, this thread clearly demonstrates that this forum is mainly composed of caring (not to mention intelligent) compassionate individuals who are either informed or simply cultured and have had the benefit of education or experience on how lucky we are to be in this beautiful country. These recent extreme acts of generosity whether politically inclined or not is what sustains the quality of life we all benefit from...now and for our future generations....
dannyboy67 wrote:One thing i heard that makes a joke of this was on the news. They were rating who's giving the most aid by country and being rated.
Just seemed abit tasteless , almost making a competition from the horror of whats gone on.
Dan😉
i agree... heard this on the news this morning and thought how stupid our news & press people can be to be trying to turn this into some sort of competition about who is giving the most.... and most likely only thought of it coz we are gonna win the race....
very tasteless indeed
see.... air and water do mix 😉
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Our relationship with Indonesia has always been bad. Anything that we can do to help them out in this crisis will be returned ten-fold in years to come. No doubt there is a long term unsaid political agenda, however the focus is to assist now, no matter what the cost.
Squiz....
Simple solutionhere is offer aid that is dependant on certain contitions being met.
Offer as much practical aid as possible, materials and labour for rebuilding, medicine and medical expertise but not wholesale lumps of cash until (particularly) the Indonesian government cuts its military spending. The harsh reality is that all the money goping there is nothing but military aid. While their government spends as little as possible, using foreign cash, to rebuild lives and environment their massive military spending will go unchecked.
The Japanese spend more on entertainment than they do on the military - lets see those sort of conditions imposed upon Indonesia.
i didnt say look after our own first. what i said was it seems that the government seems to be getting carried away with their 'good will'. agreeing to help is great, and actually helping is fantastic. its interesting when you here that we are donating a lot to help rebuild indonesia, and that the USa is helping ot rebuild thailand..... sounds like an interesting slip of toungues.
but it seems that they are getting carried away when there is so much that still is needed here. when you look at teh fact taht we are a modern society with severe problems keeping up with ourselves, then think how lesser countries jsut couldnt keep up with there growth and the problems of health and farming and etc overwhelm them, where are we heading when we knee jerk all this publlic promising. and as i said b4 how much is not forthcoming, is stagering enough so why get carried away with it.
also what about this. indonesia owes australia 2.1billion in debt. so how is it that johnny doest jsut wipe some of htat and give them a head start on their economy. the poor bastards have a hard enough time jsut servicing the interest let alone repaying, and now htat this has ahppened, what is happining then.
i jsut feel that kiss arse reporters on jets dont ask these sorts of q's they jsut wanna suck the ride just like political inclusion. if they were good reporters, you would think they would ask where the funding is coming from and how it is in our 'goodtimes and lucky country' that we cant find this kindness for our own backyard.
penguin i understand your grief closer than you think. also i repspect what you do. your point is taken gladly. my point is are we not getting carried away.
and nectar, i ve been there. i know a local here who is missing there. i understand that generally their way of life is shit. but also i understand that we are a new country compared to a lot of these countries. yes we are fortunate to be 'lucky'. but i am sure not everybody in australia feels that way.
and hotrodmatt youve raised a point i was thinking but not sure to raise. i thought indonesia was a threat to australia... so here we are helping emensly to waht, buy their support, or hope that they remember. i hop eyoure right and that there is this talk happening inthe back ground. would be terrible to see all our assistance to be used to redevelop a country to te stage it was b4 with no improvements in government, military and way of life.
Simply Cruzin'...
At least we have hospitals, bridges and roads...........
u know whats weird i live near the water and ever since i was young i always have had bad dreams about tsunamis washing away my house and family:cry:cry:cry
its sad it came true and washed away our neighbours
here is a theory to keep you dreaming at night costa. please take light hearted but is based on fact.
the egytian time clock predicts natrual dissasters for the next 5 years. (had man made for the previous three.) as prophecy type things goes its been one of the most accurate. anywya they predicted a great land of the south was to be wiped out by rushing water. it was to happen inthe next two years and maybe the one that jsut happened was it, but it has been thought it was australia to be wiped out.
remember that new zealand is on a huge fault and in fact teh islands are built up on old coral beds. so it is thought that a quake was to happen and that parts of new zealand would collaspe and taht a wave would strike the east coast of australia. .....
where you live???
oh and for anyone curious... the time clock finishes either 2011 or 2013. :duh
[Edited on 6/1/2005 by twoguns]
Simply Cruzin'...
Its Simple,
Taxes will go up!
Lives will be saved!
Who cares how much it costs, WE drink claen water, flush our waste down the loo, jump in our nice VW's, Geeeesh
We are soo lucky to be here safe and well, if it was australia that had the disaster i am sure ppl would think a little differnt
my 2 cents
Andy
They laugh because You are different, You laugh because They are all the same.
check out
www.lowlight.com.au for low lights only..
i donthtink we or anyone else would think a little different. am sure many countries would come to our aid, but i also think that we wouldnt get half of hte promises pledge as has happened in the past and will probably happen this time. i would like to know how the figures a re broken donw, like jenz said i know there is a lot in preivested capital, but it does seem to be getting blown out...
Simply Cruzin'...
I agree its a hell of a lot off cash Wes, and yeh we should probably get a breakdown as it is 'our' cash, i am also very suprised that Australia can find this amount of funds overnight, i think it proves that we the public are being left out in the cold as far as the countries finances go, i had a 24k tax bill last year, i got no help from the ATO, but still i feel that the disaster needs as much help as possible, i am deeply saddened by this awfull desaster..
Andy
They laugh because You are different, You laugh because They are all the same.
check out
www.lowlight.com.au for low lights only..
I find it strange that no-one mentioned that fact that most of the human casualties in this disaster could have been avoided if a much smaller amount of money was invested beforehand to implement a working early warning system. It wasn't like earthquake then one second later everyone is dead. True, all the infrastructure still would have been destroyed, but the loss of life seems to be the most important thing.
Governments thrive on being seen to be generous. In times of need they really crow about how much they are giving and blah blah blah. If they really cared about anything besides their own wealth they would be helping out by making the world safe so these humanitarian disasters do not happen. I'm not saying our country should not help out, not at all.
Call me cynical or idealistic if you will.
Lets just hope that Howard's plan works, and that after giving $1bn to Indonesia, they'll stop hating us so much, then we won't have to spend so much on anti-terrorist schemes.😉
It also amazes me that the government cant find any money to help pensioners or the disabled or ill here in Australia, yet when another country needs help they find the money,
Dont get me wrong, I think everyone should help, its just where is the money coming from and why have we got this surplus and why hasnt it been used to help people here who have paid taxes to fund the surplus.
Yes I am cynical, but I remember Band Aid when millions of dollars were raised, great idea but the rulers and government officials of the countries were living like kings and the people were the ones suffering.
Yes we do live in a lucky country and we should help those less fortunate than ourselves but who organises where the money or aid goes, there are too many people ready to profit from this.
I heard a stroy that after the flood people where trying to get sanctuary in some government buildings and they wouldnt let them in.
Cheers
Dave
$1 BILLION to indonesia!? now i must admit that i havnt followed all the news too closely so i may not know the finer points, and as others have mentioned there is also political motives in this giving.... but what the fuck!?
yeah indonesia has been viewed as our biggest potential threat for yonks, i have heard of the children being taught that australia is part of indonesia or something or rather, but must we always kiss their ass and buy our prolonged peace??
i mean seriously, if we are doing all this for the RIGHT reasons then bloody distribute the money evenly or so... is there going to be a country that missed out on these big gifts cos no-one fears em!? is an indonesian life more valuable then a sri lankan one?
now im no racist but i would bet my bottom dollar that all our good will and givings will be forgotten by the indonesians in no-time and they will be once again out on the streets burning our flags and so on... sure there are always bad seeds and they may be great people when alone, but as with most parts of the world, group mentality prevails and people go nuts doin stupid things...
all i wanna see is our money is spent for the sake of helping people in need, not due to political agendas (ESPECIALLY as we will not reap any benefits down the track...) and ass kissing....
if anything, something like HOT ROD MATTS idea about reducing military spending should be the minimal condition if we give all this aid to indonesia.
The government will do what it wills (when the multinationals let it) so public concern is of little consequence (we do NOT live in a democracy)...
Whatever you do if you give your own money check out the structure of the organisation first! I know a friends mother who is/was reasonable well placed in an aid organisation (not giving away who it was but two letters from the tail end of the alphabet are it's initials). I would never piss on anyone involved in that organisation if they were on fire. She travelled everywhere at least business class if not first. Stayed in a 5 star resort while "studying the problems of Indian poverty" for 3 months - 2 months of this was spent treking the alps. Had expensive soirees (organisation funded) at her house where she would show slides of her fully funded travels - very little to do with any sort of aid work!
The best thing the world can do is send clothing, food and water, machinery, building materials, medicines and labour. Australia's billion bucks should be used sending over huge teams of paid apprentices and masters to rebuild housing, sanitation etc (commercial developments can look after themselves). Medical students can do their internships in critical areas, engineers can get their pracs... there are thousands of ways of offereng real help to these countries without giving money to despotic governments.
You will laugh and call me a liar but I would like to clarify something:
Indonesia does not hate us!
I'm sure if we invaded them then they would have somthing to hate us for. E.g. Iraq and the US seeking phantom weapons. I can't recall us doing that. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yes we stepped in at East Timor and we lost a couple of journalists 30 years ago (Lest We forget) but the population, the average individual of Indonesia does not hate us.
These generalisations and assumtions are perpetual and you know what happen when you assume somthing. You make an Ass out of "U' and "Me" and get my kids into a war. Sorry but I don't want that. Call me selfish but I can think of better things for them to do with their time.
Be careful what you wish for.
Right now the Average Indonesian isn't thinking about Australia. Sure a couple of Politicians and mabey a General or two but they have more important things to do than invade us. The Average indonesian dosen't even know where and what Australia is. They are more concerned in raising their kids, feathering their old age and food on the table tonight.
Bronze.
Bronze.
Rathmines, Lake Macquarie, NSW.
Some folk in Indonesia may hate us, but you will probably find the majority view us the way we view them. Most likely just as someone who lives (way) over there.
Yes you get to see the vocal groups protesting, and yes they have some extremists. But so do we.
this was taken from a news site okay, but I believe the figures are roughly correct.
QUOTE[
The five-year aid program is split equally between grants and long-term interest free loans to help Indonesia recover from the disaster.The $500 million in grants will be directed towards areas of high priority in Indonesia and used mainly on small-scale reconstruction, while the concessional finance - interest free loans for up to 40 years - will go towards the reconstruction and rehabilitation of major infrastructure.
AUSTRALIA's $1 billion aid package to help Indonesia recover from the tsunami disaster is the single largest aid contribution ever made by the nation.
The latest federal budget set aside $2.133bn in official development assistance, or aid, to be spent this financial year.
That figure was up $239 million on the 2003-2004 budget figure, which equates to about the cost of a loaf of bread every week for each Australian.
Australia spends about 1 per cent of its budget on aid, compared with 38 per cent spent on social security and welfare.
Before the Boxing Day tsunami – which has claimed the lives of about 100,000 people in Indonesia and up to 60,000 others in India, Thailand, Burma, the Maldives, East Africa, Malaysia and Sri Lanka – the Government had already committed $800 million in aid to Indonesia over five years.
In the immediate aftermath, the Government provided $60 million for direct relief efforts and put military and other personnel on the ground providing food aid, victim identification and other services.
Recent examples of major aid efforts serve as a fascinating comparison.
In the wake of the Bangladesh floods in November last year, Australia provided $25.8 million in food and emergency operations.
The Solomon Islands will receive $201.6 million this financial year as part of our commitment to providing essential services including economic policy, prisons, law and justice, schools and hospitals.
Since May last year more than $30 million has gone towards aid in Sudan, where up to 2.3 million people have been forced from their homes after years of conflict.
Australia currently provides more than $300 million in aid each year to Papua New Guinea, which mainly helps in the areas of education and health. But a five-year package signed last year will boost that figure by an extra $800 million.
Australia's commitment to the rebuilding of Iraq stands at around $126 million.
The key aid agency AusAID uses a range of methods to get money to where it is needed. Some work is contracted to Australian and international companies who use their expertise to deliver specific programs and often train local people to continue the projects in the long term.
AusAID also funds not-for-profit bodies such as World Vision and Oxfam to deliver aid programs at the local level in developing countries.
]UNQUOTE
'Ah, whatever................'
twoguns wrote:
u know whats weird i live near the water and ever since i was young i always have had bad dreams about tsunamis washing away my house and family:cry:cry:cry
its sad it came true and washed away our neighbours
here is a theory to keep you dreaming at night costa. please take light hearted but is based on fact.
the egytian time clock predicts natrual dissasters for the next 5 years. (had man made for the previous three.) as prophecy type things goes its been one of the most accurate. anywya they predicted a great land of the south was to be wiped out by rushing water. it was to happen inthe next two years and maybe the one that jsut happened was it, but it has been thought it was australia to be wiped out.
remember that new zealand is on a huge fault and in fact teh islands are built up on old coral beds. so it is thought that a quake was to happen and that parts of new zealand would collaspe and taht a wave would strike the east coast of australia. .....
where you live???
oh and for anyone curious... the time clock finishes either 2011 or 2013. :duh
[Edited on 6/1/2005 by twoguns]
Im living in Maroubra Beach but moving to Edensor park after the wedding (so ill be safe there out west
😉 )
I also think i worked out why we are giving them $1B to buy our way into the Asia Group for the World Cup Qualifiers. Asia doesnt want to know us now hopefully we get to play soccer with the big boyz
😉
not-for-profit bodies such as World Vision
Hahahahah. Of course there are no profits when some peole can make a really good living from working for them!
Yeah I know Matt
Want to guess what it looks like you have to get when you go field for the UN?
A white toyota landcruiser, not one between you and your mates, but one each. They were worse than the locals in Bosnia, and from what I have heard were about the same in Timor.
And people wonder why I am very cynical about the UN and the incredibly bloated and complicated organisational system it operates under.
'Ah, whatever................'
the bottom line re our neighbours is for all of us:-
next land or next door we would /want to and do help if there is distress even for one person.
Just racism and orejudice gets in the way.
Re the toyotas for the big wigs
....do their job , apply , don't whinge .. have a go.
saw Oprah show and glad I did not have to look at Seinfelds $50,000,000 home in the light of tha natural disaster. hey, don't get me wrong he is a great guy and deserves accolades and the beautiful family he has.
WHAT CAN I DO IN YOUR NEED or CRISIS ??
WE ALL JUSS ONLY USE 10% OR EVEN LESS OF OUR brain !!
STATISTICALLY
Karmen
56 oval resto 60 Cal KG
58 & 62 beetle parting. 74 panel parting
63 Baja 80 GLD parting
58 donor split 11 window 63 Splitty sgle cab /son's
96 Seat Cordoba GLX daily drvr.
Long but interesting read.... [the emphasis is mine]
Australia's eastern seaboard bears the scars of enough tsunami to concern one academic, James Woodford reports.
Like the rest of the world, Ted Bryant is horrified at the images of the devastation caused by the Boxing Day tsunami, but warns that Australia is not immune.
What worries the associate dean at the University of Wollongong's Faculty of Science is that, he says, compared with some of the tsunami that have struck Australia in the past, this week's disaster was relatively small.
Bryant says Australia's east coast is hit often enough by tsunami for governments to plan for them. Waves like last Sunday's probably strike NSW on average every 500 years - the most recent possibly just decades before James Cook sailed up the east coast in 1770.
However, these tsunami are insignificant compared with three deluges Bryant says are clearly recorded in the state's coastal geology.
These tsunami were big enough to break over the biggest headlands and deposit sediments tens of kilometres inland. The erosion caused and the boulders deposited tens of metres above sea level are proof, Bryant says, that Australia is vulnerable to such a disaster.
It is thought these three giant tsunami were caused either by massive slippage on the continental shelf or an object from space smashing into the ocean. The sediments left behind have been dated, allowing scientists to determine how frequently big tsunami have hit Australia.
The most recent one was in 1491, Bryant says. "The wave went over a 130-metre-tall headland at the south end of Jervis Bay, straight over into the bay and peeled off layers of the rock platforms below the cliffs.
"Four to five thousand years ago, a sand smear was deposited across the entire Shoalhaven delta, almost to Berry," Bryant said. "Nearly anywhere you put down an auger about two metres in this area you will find a sand layer about 40 centimetres thick."
Sediment was deposited 10 kilometres up the Shoalhaven River, and vast sand and gravel sheets were deposited at Dunmore, Minnamurra and Shellharbour.
By comparison, most of the sand deposits now being shown on television appear to be only a few centimetres thick.
These three big tsunami were so powerful they have wiped out most traces of the smaller ones. "Politicians can stand there and say there's been no tsunami that have affected my term in office, therefore they don't exist," Bryant said. "But if Sunday's tsunami had happened in the Tasman Sea I wouldn't be here, because my home at Bulli would have been within the tsunami zone.
"They go beyond the mind-set of politicians, but it's not that difficult to make people aware that our coastline is threatened by tsunami. There could easily be sirens on beaches and other tsunami warnings."
Bryant has advised utility companies on how to manage tsunami risks in Sydney; his main advice is to keep cables out of the harbour wherever possible.
But not everyone agrees with Professor Bryant's findings. One of the nation's leading beach experts, Professor Andy Short, says he is plain wrong: "I don't think tsunami are the threat to NSW that he says. The rest of us have not found similar evidence."
Professor Short, of the School of Geoscience at the University of Sydney, agrees some big waves do hit Sydney but they are not tsunami. He says the area has experienced tsunami but they have been so small as to be barely noticed.
Instead, the ocean off Sydney regularly has waves up to 10 metres high caused by storms. About once a decade there are even waves that peak at 20 metres. In 1912, a massive boulder was moved by such a wave and dumped on a rock platform at the northern end of Bondi Beach. Storm waves can dump boulders to heights of 20 metres, Professor Short says, but they have nowhere near the destructive power of tsunami and dissipate easily on beaches and cliff faces.
"There's nothing in the southern Australian region that could be a source of a big tsunami," Professor Short said. "We are well removed from the known tsunami sources."
**** Ummm, there was an 8.6 off Tasmania 4 days before the Indian Ocean event!
But what if Professor Bryant is right?
He says even just a three-metre tsunami would overrun every one of Sydney's beaches.
"A one-metre-high tsunami would certainly dislodge boats from their moorings," he said. "At three metres they would be picked up and smashed and small destroyers at Garden Island would be moved to neighbouring streets. Low-lying areas would be flooded. Tsunami love harbours and it would bounce around Sydney for 24 hours. It would go up all the creeks and rivers. If it got over Lady Robinson Beach, in Botany Bay, it would flood all those low-lying suburbs. It might take an hour to reach Parramatta.
"The airport would be inundated and, if a tsunami went up the Hawkesbury, it would go all the way to Richmond and spill over onto the Hawkesbury flood plain."
If it was a warm sunny Boxing Day and 100,000 people were at the beach, or during New Year's Eve fireworks, then death tolls would be enormous, he says.
He believes many of the state's coastal communities, especially at Batemans Bay, Merimbula and Lake Macquarie, are desperately vulnerable to such an event.
"You can take out a road map for towns on estuaries close to the coast. They're all built up and they would all be flooded."
Karmen,
I do do that sort of work when I am asked to. Would I work for the UN? Yes, I'd love to be paid that much money to eat and sleep in relative luxury.
Would I work for CARE, for Merlin, IRC, OXFAM, IHE, Save the Children, MSF etc, yes. And I would do so in preference to the UN, why, because I have seen them operate in the field and I know that they operate more efficiently, effectively and with more results than the UN does.
Please read the whole thread rather than just one or two posts.
'Ah, whatever................'
Interesting Matt,
I am curious to see what the damage to our northwest coastline is as well. Something that hasn't come up in the media.
I knwo there are people up there, and a lot of communities are on the coast line there as well.
'Ah, whatever................'
i was thinking the same penguin, surley the wave must of reached aussie somwhere, i am off to have a look now on google
They laugh because You are different, You laugh because They are all the same.
check out
www.lowlight.com.au for low lights only..
Go here to see where the wave went...
http://www.smh.com.au/tsunamiflash/index.html
Very little of the wave went south at all.
If any significant effect was felt in Oz it would have been in the south west.
[Edited on 7-1-2005 by HotRodMatt]
Me, I'm just getting sick of hearing about it on the news.
On boxing day there was a tidal wave, thousands dead, just as many missing, millions displaced.
Since then the whole world has responded with money, men & supplies.
This is as it should be.
But this constant film of destruction, dead bodies, different angles of people getting drowned. I GET THE FUCKING IDEA!!
Tonight, near two weeks later; Oh look, heres another film of some poor bastard getting drowned!
Don Henley wrote it down years ago;
"There's a bubble headed bleach blonde, comes on at five
She can tell you bout a plane crash with a wink in her eye
It's interesting when people die
Give us dirty laundry."
Was true then..........still is.
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
Hmmm.. Don't want to join this from the wrong angle.. But
My youngest brother is Country Ops manager for TNT in Indonesia.. They just happen to have a contract with the UN for Logistics support..
Anyway Dave (my brother) has been in a world of chaos since boxing day.. organising, ships, convoys of trucks and helicopters... always more helicopters... supplies, airport operations, personnel,
In the middle of this, (while Dave has been in Banda Aceh, Medan, Jakarta and all over the place) his wife (Paula) has been working in the UN office in Jakarta.. Neither have had much sleep or personal time for the last 13 days..
Dave has an exceptional logistics talent and in my last phone call to him.. (He was getting on a chopper in Medan to sort out some problem somewhere).. he said to not believe stories in the media about relief not getting to where its needed.. he said the relief is getting through and an awesome operation is underway..
I am very proud of him and all the others that are doing what they are trained to do.. All we can do is support them in it..
Rob
penguin wrote:Karmen,
I do do that sort of work when I am asked to. Would I work for the UN? Yes, I'd love to be paid that much money to eat and sleep in relative luxury.
Would I work for CARE, for Merlin, IRC, OXFAM, IHE, Save the Children, MSF etc, yes. And I would do so in preference to the UN, why, because I have seen them operate in the field and I know that they operate more efficiently, effectively and with more results than the UN does.
Please read the whole thread rather than just one or two posts.
