this may seem cold...

twoguns · 2005-01-06T11:33:59+00:00

but truely it is not. i am curious as to others thoughts. and want to opena discussion... not attack. remember you can always post on my critism thread if you cant talk fairly here. i understand and accept the terrible tragedy of the tsunami, but how is it that the goverment or those involve can afford to give so much to overseas aid? for hospitals, schools medicines and all else, when here at home, we cant afford to maintain our own hospitals, upgrade our own roads, and look after or own? i understand support and help, but are we going too far? where will the moeny come from, when we say we cant give more here? who ends up paying? does it mean our taxes rise again, but yet we will still ahve long long waiting lists for surgeries, and poor roads and other problems with our own society? what effect will it have on our system down the track? how much will we actually give (understanding that in the past many pledges are not fulfilled)?

koolkarmakombi enkarmarising

2,078 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 7 Jan 2005, 7:36 pm

#289321

Stenguns, he da man!

StenGuns wrote:Hmmm.. Don't want to join this from the wrong angle.. But

My youngest brother is Country Ops manager for TNT in Indonesia.. They just happen to have a contract with the UN for Logistics support..
Anyway Dave (my brother) has been in a world of chaos since boxing day.. organising, ships, convoys of trucks and helicopters... always more helicopters... supplies, airport operations, personnel,

In the middle of this, (while Dave has been in Banda Aceh, Medan, Jakarta and all over the place) his wife (Paula) has been working in the UN office in Jakarta.. Neither have had much sleep or personal time for the last 13 days..
Dave has an exceptional logistics talent and in my last phone call to him.. (He was getting on a chopper in Medan to sort out some problem somewhere).. he said to not believe stories in the media about relief not getting to where its needed.. he said the relief is getting through and an awesome operation is underway..

I am very proud of him and all the others that are doing what they are trained to do.. All we can do is support them in it..
Rob

penguin wrote:Karmen,
I do do that sort of work when I am asked to. Would I work for the UN? Yes, I'd love to be paid that much money to eat and sleep in relative luxury.
Would I work for CARE, for Merlin, IRC, OXFAM, IHE, Save the Children, MSF etc, yes. And I would do so in preference to the UN, why, because I have seen them operate in the field and I know that they operate more efficiently, effectively and with more results than the UN does.

Please read the whole thread rather than just one or two posts.

theverybigtallman Wolfsburg Wizard

405 posts · joined Aug 2004 · 7 Jan 2005, 8:05 pm

#289328

i think the government is wasting time putting in a tsunami warning system. communications are so crap that there is no chance everyone would be warned anyway. some islands lie just a couple of metres above sea level anyway, so where are they going to go?

early 60s beetle for sale - ex bush basher - spares - $100 or offers

twoguns simply aircooled

4,275 posts · joined Nov 2002 · 7 Jan 2005, 8:07 pm

#289329

theverybigtallman wrote:i think the government is wasting time putting in a tsunami warning system. communications are so crap that there is no chance everyone would be warned anyway. some islands lie just a couple of metres above sea level anyway, so where are they going to go?

that was actually a coment made byt he guy who first recognised the quake. he stated it wouldntve made a big difference as those taht were most affected, arnt a part of hte countries who run and get warned by the quake stations.

Simply Cruzin'...

penguin ackkkkkk thhhhhpt!

3,383 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 7 Jan 2005, 8:52 pm

#289341

My apologies to your sister in law Stenguns, I guess I should have said that what I said was my opinion based on my own experiences, not the entire organisation. I am sure that she is working hard.
From what you wrote though your brother doesn't work for the UN, he works for TNT under contract. I am sure he is working his butt off as well, just like all our Log folk are (I am scared when I hear that we are using RAAF ADGs to unload aircraft though:O).
I just have had bad experiences with UN personnel and their organisation (and the EU) in the field.

'Ah, whatever................'

StenGuns Veteran Volks Folk

2,147 posts · joined Mar 2004 · 7 Jan 2005, 9:03 pm

#289347

No worries.. You make a valid point about misuse of funds.. Any massive org like this has waste.. The people at the sharp end are the useful part of the machine and do a good job.. Mind you Penguin.. Peace Keeping is different and we all know the UN is not set up for that.. Disaster relief though.. I have to give them the thumbs up!!

penguin wrote:My apologies to your sister in law Stenguns, I guess I should have said that what I said was my opinion based on my own experiences, not the entire organisation. I am sure that she is working hard.
From what you wrote though your brother doesn't work for the UN, he works for TNT under contract. I am sure he is working his butt off as well, just like all our Log folk are (I am scared when I hear that we are using RAAF ADGs to unload aircraft though:O).
I just have had bad experiences with UN personnel and their organisation (and the EU) in the field.

eirecooled Officially Full-On Dubber

308 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 7 Jan 2005, 9:19 pm

#289353

Just having the ability to send and read these message via a computer and the internet puts you in the top 8% of the richest citzens on earth.
Do not even try to compare a bad day for you to what these people are suffering. compare your day to this scenario :
you wake from sleeping under a tree on a hill because you fear another wave could be coming. you are hungry but the market place were you bought your daily food is wiped off the earth. thirsty? head down to the well to find it full of sea water and dead bodies. nothing to do but search for your missing loved ones you were separated from ( most lost whole families or the major breadwinners) start off at the place your home used to be and search through the rubble, finding your dead friends and neighbours but not your children or wife/husband. put up with the terrible smell of rotting corpses that only a tropical sun can really speed up and the fact that a cut or scratch from the wreckage will probably allow a host of diseases in to your starving body (that you will not be able to treat at your local doctors & claim an 80% rebate back from the government) move on to the local factory where you worked to find it is gone, so no income for you (and no centrelink to tide you over) mossies are starting to breed in the stagnant pools of water from the disaster so you will also have a chance of a blood bourne virus being passed on in the near future.
The hot sun and your thrist finally makes you drink some water you think might be safe ( hello cholera/diptherra/dysentery) continue on searching till dusk turning over rotten corpses looking for your family till you retire to your tree to sleep & start again the next day waiting for some caring person to come to your aid.
I had $200 saved up for some dropped spindles. I will be donating this to help. I can wait, they cannot, look into your soul to find ways to help not reasons not to. The child/person that gets saved could one day find there way to some powerful position in that countries future and I would rather he/she remembers that in their time of need Australia was there to assist.

Problem: I got probed by Aliens last night...............and I think I like it!.........E.T call ME.

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 7 Jan 2005, 9:49 pm

#289370

HotRodMatt wrote:Simple solution here is offer aid that is dependant on certain contitions being met.

Offer as much practical aid as possible, materials and labour for rebuilding, medicine and medical expertise but not wholesale lumps of cash until (particularly) the Indonesian government cuts its military spending. The harsh reality is that all the money going there is nothing but military aid. While their government spends as little as possible, using foreign cash, to rebuild lives and environment their massive military spending will go unchecked.

The Japanese spend more on entertainment than they do on the military - lets see those sort of conditions imposed upon Indonesia.

Did You notice the Indonesian Military helping the US Marines giving out food... All the Indonesians had a Machine gun strapped to their back.... Their Military IS the Power over there.... I AGREE with Hotrodmatt....
Years ago, many Australians were afraid of the Indonesian Military, [Government] and thought they would try to take over Australia..... and the Press helped spread this story....
Because of this I have never liked Indonesia... [Government]

I've never known any Indonesions either, but when You see all these poor people without ANYTHING at all.... No Food No Water No homes or anywhere to sleep....
and their losses of Family and friends....
These people have been thru Hell and their lives will NEVER be the same again....
I do think the aid from Australia was too high Considering the Aid given by other countries...
We Might be a Large country, but We don't have a huge population.... and We don't have to try to beat other countries donations....

The government can never find a few million for Hospital beds... etc... which they take away and never replace....
or for More Nursing staff... the list is endless..... as others have noted....

Our Prime Minister Mr John Howard was going to Indonesia anyway for a conference....

I also see Two Guns and many others views and agree partially with many of them.....

Neil, has another point of View-

It would be very easy to Flame some of the comments made
as We All don't have the same views.....
This is STILL a democracy.... until the Indonesians take over..

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

eirecooled Officially Full-On Dubber

308 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 7 Jan 2005, 11:04 pm

#289409

we just spent more on xmas presents ($1.5 billion retail turnover)than we are donating to these devasted people! fear and mistrust caused the cold war/arms race. when will we ever learn. have a look around your home and garage tonight and image it all gone, half the people you know missing or dead. your suburb leveled and no drinking water. this is the reality! all the rest is just theories and opinions.

Problem: I got probed by Aliens last night...............and I think I like it!.........E.T call ME.

Unity-28 TOO LOW? NEVER

1,742 posts · joined Nov 2002 · 7 Jan 2005, 11:23 pm

#289414

eirecooled wrote:we just spent more on xmas presents ($1.5 billion retail turnover)than we are donating to these devasted people! fear and mistrust caused the cold war/arms race. when will we ever learn. have a look around your home and garage tonight and image it all gone, half the people you know missing or dead. your suburb leveled and no drinking water. this is the reality! all the rest is just theories and opinions.

Amen!

N!

karmen Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,648 posts · joined Apr 2003 · 8 Jan 2005, 11:48 am

#289621

penguin wrote:Karmen,
because I have seen them operate in the field and I know that they operate more efficiently, effectively and with more results than the UN does.

Please read the whole thread rather than just one or two posts.

Ok, dear Penguin , firstly I did read it A L L,
secondly there is always somebody good, better , best, perfecter etc hey ??
if we leave it all to the best...would the rest get experience ? get better, would the tiny wheel in the clock mechanism have to do anything at all ? - or be obsolete,dumm, useless.

All good for our philosophy and evolution - our personal -and international development... 😊kiss

the bad make others look good

Karmen
56 oval resto 60 Cal KG
58 & 62 beetle parting. 74 panel parting
63 Baja 80 GLD parting
58 donor split 11 window 63 Splitty sgle cab /son's
96 Seat Cordoba GLX daily drvr.

karmen Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,648 posts · joined Apr 2003 · 8 Jan 2005, 11:50 am

#289623

Unity-28 wrote:
eirecooled wrote:Amen!

Hallelujha

(oh and give us a spell check here if ya want)

Karmen
56 oval resto 60 Cal KG
58 & 62 beetle parting. 74 panel parting
63 Baja 80 GLD parting
58 donor split 11 window 63 Splitty sgle cab /son's
96 Seat Cordoba GLX daily drvr.

twoguns simply aircooled

4,275 posts · joined Nov 2002 · 8 Jan 2005, 4:45 pm

#289786

jsut got this message via u2u, from crazy george. dont know where the thinking came from...

dude.. i had a buyer for your type3 ghia!! now that i see ur makin fun of people dying in the tsanami disaster ,i dont think ill be passing on ur details... u & all the others should be ashamed of yourselfs...

sent the following response, and i am jsut posting here for hte sake of mods ( *thinking i am in it again* )

youre a dumb arse crazy george... i havent made any fun of the tsunami victims. i have jsut asked about the go ons of our politicians and reporters.

you seriously either must be really stupid or damn ignorant to say what you have....

Simply Cruzin'...

57 Panel Officially Full-On Dubber

279 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 8 Jan 2005, 10:00 pm

#290020

I think it's a shame it took this kind of devistation for the more fortunate countries to dig deep. All the countries effected needed this sort of help before the tidal wave. I for one are happy little Johnny decided to give 1 Billion dollars to help them. I don't see why we shouldn't help, even if they haven't had some sort of natural disaster. We as tax payers probably won't see much of our budget surplus so why don't we give more. We can afford it......

57kombi Hannover Elder

2,544 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 8 Jan 2005, 10:01 pm

#290021

Watch it Wes, we'll get this one deleted as well/????

Good reply,

Cheers
Dave

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 8 Jan 2005, 10:09 pm

#290027

This is STILL a democracy.... until the Indonesians take over..

Lee is it H.A.M. radio or reactionary talk back radio that you are into?

Indonesia's army would need the support of the rest of Asia to have any chance of a successful invasion. Sure there's millions of them and their military spending in relation to the GDP is appalling but they don't got no NAVY! Indonesia has never been a realistic threat to Australia other than in the words of John Laws, Allan Jones, Steve Price, Ron Casey and other such tools.

rice_girl Seriously Crusin Dubber

153 posts · joined Jul 2003 · 10 Jan 2005, 4:28 pm

#290934

It's a shame it took the unfathomable loss of life and destruction to make us realise what a rich and flourishing country we really are, I cannot see how anyone could have any misgivings about our country putting $1 billion towards the cause.

But I do hope that when the affected regions start to rebuild their lives and homes that we can keep the goodwill alive by shifting focus into our own backyard. It is true that us Aussies will give someone the shirts off our own backs, but sometimes we get very lazy and need to be reminded when to be charitable.

Noone, not even the government, seems to care about our own homeless or battling, this is evident by the lack of affordable housing, community support and monetary compensations for people who live with disabilities, addictions or just have nowhere to go. How does this happen in our own backyard when we are supposed to have one of the highest resource quotas per head?

The little help these people do receive from charity organisations is hampered by (one example) the recent spate of sickening dilapidation of charity bins from which most of their funding derives.

The bottom line is that the poor victims of the tsunami need our help during these terrible times, but please remember that the quality of life some people endure here at home could do with some improving too.

Just my 2c. 🙂

GO MANLY!!