1600 kit for a 1300

57 posts · joined Feb 2003 · 19 Mar 2003, 9:51 pm

#32924

I've got a 1300 TP that is showing signs of needing a rebuild.

How much should I expect to pay for a 1600 kit for it and where in Brissy could I source one.

On the other hand, does anyone want to suggest that I should just rebuild the 1300 as is. Most of my work is on the highway so a 1600 box is on the cards anyway at some time in the future to drop the revs a bit.:thumb

While it's out and in pieces, are there other suggested mods for a daily driver. I would prefer not to split the case unless it is necessary. Current signs point only to top end woes.

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 20 Mar 2003, 8:14 am

#32971

Give Mick a call.
Also check the OZ VW BUISNES DIRECTORY, some one else might be closer.
I am guessing here but you would be kissing $1000 once heads P&C.s studs etc etc were changed.
BE CAREFUL doing a big top end rebuild like that and not doing the bottom end.
The 1300 case is also single relief so just stock 1600 - no high compression stuff etc. They are not meant for hi po.
Definetely check for end play. That is a lot of money and time to lay out only to have to ho it again when a bearing lets go cause of all that new power.

Futue te ipsum!!!

Menangler Custom Title Time!

1,991 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 20 Mar 2003, 7:37 pm

#33093

The twin port 1300's have a dual relief case, and are the same as the 1600 case, (except for the engine number)
They are a great case to rebuild because the original 1300 size didn't make that much power, so the cases live a lot better than the 1600.
If yours has been looked after chances are that the bottom end will be fine.

All you might need is a new barrell kit and a pair of new heads, (1300 twinport heads have smaller valves) and a gasket set. A 1600 carb and manifold would be a good thing to change too as well.

FAHRVERGNUGEN;
Description of a pleasurable sensation,
Experienced when a car and it's driver are in mutual harmony, A unique driving experience, Pleasure, Satisfaction,
A feeling experienced by Volkswagen Drivers.

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 21 Mar 2003, 7:55 am

#33173

Ahh - so they are a good thing. OK maybe time to bump up the CR and a bit of a port job and 3 angle grind !:bounce

Futue te ipsum!!!

Mr Hoodjacks Casual Dubber

27 posts · joined Feb 2003 · 21 Mar 2003, 9:48 am

#33189

blue74l wrote:Ahh - so they are a good thing. OK maybe time to bump up the CR and a bit of a port job and 3 angle grind !:bounce

Nah, don't. You will kill your old bottom end

aussiebug Officially Full-On Dubber

246 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 21 Mar 2003, 10:19 am

#33196

Mr Hoodjacks wrote:
blue74l wrote:Ahh - so they are a good thing. OK maybe time to bump up the CR and a bit of a port job and 3 angle grind !:bounce
Nah, don't. You will kill your old bottom end

Hoodjacks - read Dave Beckers post above - he's got it right.

Lets consider - you have a 1600 dual relief case which has a good bottom end and so you decide to rebuilt the top end. Any problesm with that?

Now you also have a 1300 dual relief case in good condition and decide to rebuilt the top end into a 1600. This case is likely to last LONGER than the rebuilt 1600, as the bottom end in both cases is identical but the 1300 only made 44hp (the 1600 makes 60hp), so the 1300 case has had an easier time of it.

The 1600 P&C are a drop in replacement item - same sized outer diameter, sot hte conversion is easy.

You CAN use the original 1300 heads but will end up with about 8.8:1 compression and the slightly smaller valves of the 1300. 8.8 is a bit high for comfort (even Shell optimax 98 octane would be marginal), and of course the smaller valves would reduce the benfits of the higher compression ratio anyway. Yo'd also be limite to using the 30 of H30/31 sized carbs, which would limit any increas in hp.

So it's better to get a set of 1600 heads to go with it, for a more normal 7.5:1 compression ratio (use normal unleaded petrol). You can use 1600sp heads and stick with the 30 or H30/31 carbs if you wish. Or with the 1600dp heads you can also use the larger 34PICT/3 carby if you want to for a few extra hp, or you can use the 30 or H30/31 sized carbs if you prefer (more choices).

Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
Repairs and maintenance for the home mechanic
http://www.vw-resource.com

LittleRalph Commited Dubber

57 posts · joined Feb 2003 · 24 Mar 2003, 10:17 pm

#33775

This is great guys. Keep up the debate. I'm learning heaps.

Just out of interest, I've already got a 34PICT/3 carbie on it. Does this mean that someone may have beaten me to the engine upgrade in the past? Can I tell before pulling it out / down?

Keep it coming.

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 25 Mar 2003, 6:56 am

#33805

nah - too hard to tell.
In 30 years carbies have been thrown around with gay abandon.
They only way to tell is to pull it and measure things.
You can do some sort of volumetric test but not the average person.

How do you know it is 1300?
What is the engine number?

Futue te ipsum!!!

LittleRalph Commited Dubber

57 posts · joined Feb 2003 · 25 Mar 2003, 10:56 pm

#34048

"How do I know it's a 1300?" I don't for sure. I've owned a few 1600 (some a little sick) and this one has way less puch. It is also pretty much stock on the rest of the car and there's a big 1300 badge stuck to the engine lid.

Engine no. is AR101982 if that helps.

I've decided to go the 1600 route. Anyone know someone with a good pair of 1600TP heads in the Brissy area? I can cope with the barrels and pistons but the heads are starting to blow the budget.

Also, I've got a 34PICT/3 carbie on it. I'll clean and rebuild it while it's all out. Do I need to change the main jet or do I have to wait until I pull it out and see what the current one is?

70AutoStik Insano Dub Head

730 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 25 Mar 2003, 11:11 pm

#34056

Dave put you on the right track - I did that convo about 20 years ago in my buggy and it was fantastic (and the guys who bought it off me thought so, too.) You can run the original heads; but you'll need to add barrel spacers to bring the compression down (& if I remember right, you'll need your heads cut to fit the new barrels.)

The reduced valve size and the carb will limit your top end - but, for street or off-road use, you'll be so happy with the result you won't know it! (The increase in torque is heavenly.)

vdub2c Magazine Dude

245 posts · joined Oct 2002 · 26 Mar 2003, 8:50 am

#34095

LittleRalph wrote:
I've decided to go the 1600 route. Anyone know someone with a good pair of 1600TP heads in the Brissy area? I can cope with the barrels and pistons but the heads are starting to blow the budget.

check the buying and selling thread... i think saurus is selling a 1600tp... all it needs is a carbie, and he's in brisbane.:bounce

aussiebug Officially Full-On Dubber

246 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 26 Mar 2003, 3:56 pm

#34162

LittleRalph wrote:"How do I know it's a 1300?" I don't for sure
Engine no. is AR101982 if that helps.
[/b]

That makes it originally a 1974 1300 - late in the production year - the 1300s for that year were

AR 000,001 - AR 121,271

Also, I've got a 34PICT/3 carbie on it. I'll clean and rebuild it while it's all out. Do I need to change the main jet or do I have to wait until I pull it out and see what the current one is?

Check all the jets.

It's really too much carb for a 1300 (and it must have the 1600dp manifold on the engine to use it or and adaptor on the smaller-flange 1300dp manifold).

For a 1600 with a vauum distributor, the 1600dp needs a 55 idel, 127.5 main jet and 60 air correction jet.

For a 1600 with 009 distributor, the main jet needs to be a 130 or just maybe a 132.5 and the accle pump needs to be set for full squirt. The 009 with 34PICT/3 tends to make flat spots on acceleration, and running the 34 richer helps reduce/elminate the problem.

Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
Repairs and maintenance for the home mechanic
http://www.vw-resource.com

70AutoStik Insano Dub Head

730 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 26 Mar 2003, 9:53 pm

#34269

It helps to "eliminate" the flat spot (running a little richer,) but it still runs a bit flat - I remember finally changing out the 34 for a 32 with adaptor in a Kombi and it really came alive!

LittleRalph Commited Dubber

57 posts · joined Feb 2003 · 26 Mar 2003, 10:38 pm

#34288

I've been talking to Saurus as suggested and his 1600 is sounding very promising. I think it comes minus the carb though so all the above will be taken under advisement.

Just a question on the flat spot. Everyone seems to talk about this flat spot hassle with the 009s. What is the great benefit of a 009 that makes it worthwhile going to all this trouble to cure a flat spot?????

aussiebug Officially Full-On Dubber

246 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 27 Mar 2003, 1:42 pm

#34398

Ralph,

The only answer to your question is "because it's cheap".

That's it - there is NO other advantage of using a 009 on a road car.

They were originally designed for the VW industrial engines which work at relatively constant speeds (generators, pumps, air copressors) and in these applications they work just fine.

They were also used on the earliest Kombis with the 1200 engine - very low geared which had to be driven full throttle to get anywhere before Christmas (high rpm, full throttle). But just try getting one of those away from the lights without the stumbles - lots of revs and clutch slip. High rpm, high power - are you seeing a pattern yet?

They also work well with VW racing engines for the same reason - always at high speed high throttle.

But they can't sense the throttle position, which of course is ALWAYS changing in a road car. The vacuum distributors do exactly this (via the changing vacuum signal and the vacuum canister on the distributor).

To get an engine to spin up smoothly, you need both a shot of fuel and a shot of advance. The accelerator pump provides a shot of fuel, and the vacuum canister on the distributor provides the shot of advance. The 009 can't throttle-sense, so you have to compensate by replacing the missing advance with MORE fuel - running the carby richer right through the rev range and having the accel pump set for max squirt.

And since the 009 doesn't even begin to advance until about 1200-1300rpm - you often get the stumbles off the line anyway.

(A lot of folks who use the 009 say "I can feel the power!" when what they are really feeling is the 009 finally beinging to advance as the rpms rise and so the power comes up to normal after a slow start - put them in a bug with a well adjusted vacuum distributor and THEN they can tell the difference).

The other advantage of the vacuum distributors is that they can allow up to 40-42 degrees max advance under the right conditions (part throttle cruising for example) and this makes for very good economy, but if you floored the throttle a medium rpm with max 40 degrees advance the engine the engine would ping like crazy. But the vacuum line senses the throttle change, backs off the advance to about 30 degrees and then gradually lets it back in as the rpm rises to match the "new" throttle position (it senses the change in vacuum as the rpm rises with the steady full throttle for example).

So you get economy without pinging. Since the 009 can't throttle sense, you have to set it for "worst case" of 28-32 degrees. And THAT means that for much of the time it's running at LESS advance than the engine would find ideal.

For all these reasons, it provides less economy than the vacuum distributors, and can cause those "flat spots" on acceleration.

But it's cheap!

A lot of the mags started the "go fast" craze and recommended 009s because in fact if you are "going fast" all the time (racing) they work quite well.

And since they are a "one size fits all" you can get ANY VW engine to run reasonably well with one - means you don't have to think about different engines /carbies /vacuum signals - right?

So for all the wrong reasons, 009s are popular. But they are NOT best - by a long shot.

But they are cheap!

Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
Repairs and maintenance for the home mechanic
http://www.vw-resource.com