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Ethanol??

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Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#358387
What is your opinion on ethanol??

Was driving alond Victoria Road heading east up the hill towards Top Ryde and there is a servo on the left hand side that sells 100% ethanol.

I will say - i would like to think it is better. It would support our cane industry??

Anyone run it??
Futue te ipsum!!!

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#358397
Nice on the rocks with a twist

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#358399
can you sniff ethanol???

Seeing as it is out of sugar - is it as bitter as petrol???
Futue te ipsum!!!

Purple Martin Fahrvergnugen

913 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#358407
It would be better for the environment to use a renewable fuel, HOWEVER...

Ethanol can corrode some materials in your:
* Fuel tanks
* Fuel lines/hoses
* Injector seals
* Delivery pipes
* Fuel pump and regulator

Vapour pressure of ethanol is greater therefore probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.

Ethanol can cause the engine to run lean.

Vapour pressure of ethanol is greater and leads to increased evaporative emissions.


All this was found easily on Google... I'm sure there's more!
1959 red & white Beetle
1975 Kombi camper

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#358416
nice bug Purplr 😉
Futue te ipsum!!!

Purple Martin Fahrvergnugen

913 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#358473
Thanks! I got it on Saturday from another guy on this forum 😎
1959 red & white Beetle
1975 Kombi camper

kombikim disfunctionally capable

1,521 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·

#358496
I reckon you should give that ethanol a go in all your vehicles Barry, & let us know the results
Please, I need drivers side window regulator (winder mechanism) for my '54

barls Administrator Causer of Chaos and Mayhem

9,473 posts · joined Jun 2004 ·

#358500
id stay away from it as it burns hotter and with a lower octane rating, they put this in most of the cheap imported fuel.
“We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free.” Bill Hicks
the chaos project - click me

kombikim disfunctionally capable

1,521 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·

#358501
yep, are you sure it was not supposed to say 100% ethanol
free ?
Please, I need drivers side window regulator (winder mechanism) for my '54

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#358504
Nope Kim - it says 100% Ethanol

Have a look - its not far from you. On Vic Rd on RHS going to West Ryde
Futue te ipsum!!!

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#358505
Can we try it in the blue bus??
Futue te ipsum!!!

kombikim disfunctionally capable

1,521 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·

#358506
🙁🙁
Please, I need drivers side window regulator (winder mechanism) for my '54

Purple Martin Fahrvergnugen

913 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#358513
I wouldn't put it in any car of mine!
1959 red & white Beetle
1975 Kombi camper

Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#358515
Just drive up to Mackay in QLD, pull up to a BP station and try a tank of the E10 Ultimate / Ethanol (10%) mix that is being trialled up there in a commercial trial.

IIRC, BP are seriously looking into making it a permanent fixture in the QLD fuel market (as they have cheap access to the raw feedstock required for economical ethanol production via the sugar cane industry), so hopefully its here to stay.

Like Purple Martin said, you need to be very careful with the mixture of petrol / ethanol in engines that are designed for gasoline only, as you run into seal swelling issues and they will run lean too (ie in fuel injected cars that think they are burning a higher calorific value, denser fuel like petrol).

If you engineered the fuel storage and delivery system in the vehicle in question to be able to cope with the differences in fuels (ie changed all the seals to alcohol friendly ones, and upgraded the injectors and tuned engine management / rejetted carbies to handle the increased flow required (just like methanol) then there should be no reason why you couldnt use pure ethanol ? Not sure what compression you would be able to run though.....

Additionally, the mexcans have run Gasahol (a 50 / 50 petrol / ethanol mix I believe) for many a year.....

Chewy Fahrvergnugen

889 posts · joined Jul 2004 ·

#358520
One for you, one for me, one for you, one for me.. lol
Be a lot of DUIs around
.

bajachris88 The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 6

6,661 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·

#358654
You stole my idea chewy. I was gonna say that 😉
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!

tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#358749
Men, there are a few ides here that are a bit wide of the mark.

Cutting petrol with ethanol has been going on commercially for years.
Its usually around 10%.
There are quite a few enterprising dudes that actually bother to still up this stuff at home and re-jet their engines to suit.
With no other modifications to an engine apart from re-jetting, running alky can yield around 5 to 8% power increase but roughly double the fuel consumption.

Adding ethanol/alchohol/methanol RAISES the octane rating of petrol.

Loosely speaking:
petrol correct air/fuel ratio is around 14:1
Alcohol correct mixture is around 7:1

Alcohols are hydroscopic and therefore take up water in SOLUTION so its NOT undesireable to have it in there.
An old trick to control condensation in fuel tanks is to regularly pour in a litre or 2 of metho every now and then.

The low percentages of alcohol does lean the mixture to a degree but the increased octane rating compensates for this.
Things tend to go wrong using percentages above around 15% requiring re-jetting.
There are No dramas with rubber seals and gaskets in the low percentages used in alchohol cut fuel.

Diesel fuel is also cut with alchohol and termed Diesohol.
This has been trialed in truck and bus fleets around the country for many years with no ill effects.

Pour it in your tank and run away with it. You will not notice any difference in a low compression dak dak.

L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....

ClassicVW(pacific) Custom Title Time!

1,627 posts · joined Jul 2004 ·

#358772
Painter at work was on about this, then he read the label of his 10 gallon tub of Meths and there it was Ethonol.
Make you wonder eh!!!

tangblog Learner Dubber

11 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·

#359900
Hi Purple Did all you guys Know that the humble bug in brazil runs on Ethanol. thats why in the late 80's the cylinder heads coming out of Brazil had really high compression heads. but back in those days we had real petrol which could cope with the high compression. years ago there was a bogas petrol station at raymond terrace and they cut there fuel with 20 to 30 % ethanol and my bug ran like the wind all the way to byron untill the gas ran low.
The whole Ethanol Debate is a farce all petrol stations have a small percentage of water in there tanks which gets through to your gas tank thats why they rust out.Where as ethanol can in high concentration can absorb some water and there for take the water out of your tank.Just like adding metho to your tank.
Also in some states in the US have petrol that is cut with 50% ethanol and they have no problems. The story goes that the fedral gov wanted to do the same in Australia but the oil companys started the ethanol smear campain and it looks like they have got most people hoodwinked about ethanol I say bring it on first thing tomorrow i"ll go and fill up with ethanol.
Also the ethanol burn is cooler due to the formation of h20 in the combustion process, great for an air cooled car

tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#360251
tangblog wrote:.... all petrol stations have a small percentage of water in there tanks which gets through to your gas tank thats why they rust out.
.......Also the ethanol burn is cooler due to the formation of h20 in the combustion process, great for an air cooled car
Running cooler by forming H20 in the combustion process eh? Ill bet that water has a big effect at combustion temps exceeding 1500Deg F!!
The coolness you are alluding to is associated with the inlet gas charge. I cant be bothered with a detailed explaination but to demonstrate this, smear your hands with metho. What do you feel? Rather cold isnt it?
Decrease inlet gas temp and increased air density is the result. Put very simply, more air. add more fuel and get a bigger bang.

Running 50/50 alky/petrol is quite feasible but totally impractical as the rejetting required to run the car on this jungle juice renders the car close to useless on straight petrol. Verrrrryy loosely speaking, you will need to increase the FLOW of your carb jets in the order of 50% to maintain useful fuel/air ratios.
The upshot of this is pretty much 50% worse fuel economy.
This would be fine and dandy if every suburb had an outlet with 50/50 gasohol but this is not the case.
Furthermore, there is insufficient infrastructure to produce commerciall quantities of alky at a reasonable price hence the lack of outlets.
There are also adverse emission issues with alky. Its not as clean as the tree huggers would have you believe.

The water in service station tanks is largely a result of condensation and the same is true in your fuel tank.
Water is ever present in all fuel storage tanks and water is actually used as a seperator between different petroleum products being transported in the same bulk pipeline.

After a bulk delivery, the water is drained off from the large depot storage tanks and the fuel is always taken off at a higher level than the water level.
Water levels in depot and servo tanks are monitored on a regular basis.

Usually you may get some water during or immediately after a road delivery to a servo where the fuel has been stirred up. Fuel is fed to the tanks from the road tanker via a standpipe and outlet near the bottom of the storage tanks, this is to minimise static charge buildup but also results in the fuel being stirred up from the bottom.
So if a tanker is dropping fuel while you are filling up then this will most likely be the time you may get water.

Excessive water buildup and rusting in car tanks is largely the result of condensation buildup. Made worse by some dudes insistance on running the tank at or near empty all the time.

L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#360327
I used BOGAS which has Methanol in it , ]about 10% or lower I believe I read somewhere....] for a number of years in My Mitsubishi Magna and Lancers.....
I only switched as I get 4 cents off at Caltex/Woolworths stations...

Its Law in the US to use ethanol with Gasoline, to help the Sugar Cane farmers.... The same should be done Here...

We have a service station in Scone that has a sign up saying
NO Ethanol.....

Lee

http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug



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- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

Judsons4eva Officially Full-On Dubber

270 posts · joined Oct 2004 ·

#362275
Hey Guys. The Commonwealth Department of Environemnt funded a trial cost $4mill looking at the impacts of 20% ethanol in petrol on old and new cars. This trial showed that in old cars they run leaner (hotter) and there were problems with corrosion and rubber parts going soft. In new cars over 80,000 kms some emissions blew out and valve recession increased and piston deposits inceased. On the basis of this trial it is illegal to use more than 10% ethanol or E10. E10 is safe in most new cars but not always safe in old cars. Some European manufactuers advise againts E10 in new cars. It has a cleaning effect and when put in fuel tanks that are dirty it tends to free up all the deposits and therefore clog the filters etc. It shouldn't have any real bad effects on a Vw engine, it improves octane. Factory rubber parts should be OK but fuel lines and pump diaphrams of dobious origin may go slightly soft over time. Fortunately Brazillian bit should be fine because they are tolerant to E22.
550 Porsche Spyder
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2

General_Failure Use your head, don't abuse it!

1,036 posts · joined Jun 2004 ·

#363860
I always found that ethanol doped fuel caused havoc with my cars. Mostly due to overheating. This is with 2 aircooleds and a ZL fairlane (ULP EFI). Never really understood what ethanol did. Oddly enough I switched to PULP for everything.
Then I put in additives.
Just before my van's motor went again, straight after the topend rebuild, I opted for ULP instead (which had ethanol) as the repairs hurt my hip pocket. 30km later dead van. Still dead too. This time around I am never using ULP.
It was a QLD summer so the heat coupled with the high compression of brand spanking rings, and high compression pistons (didn't know that at the time). So it wasn't 100% the fuels fault. But the extra heat didn't help.
With a rejet etc, I wouldn't mind running ethanol doped fuel, but my van ran too hot anyway.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#363861
Bizarre wrote:Nope Kim - it says 100% Ethanol

Have a look - its not far from you. On Vic Rd on RHS going to West Ryde
No way... car won't run. Someone has made an error with signage... 10% is an acceptable mix in petrol with no bad side effects
Pay your debts, CxxT