jakjones wrote:You will be treated well on this Forum only if you join the 1916 brigade,there are several standard answers to different topics and as soon as you challenge these standard answers you will be cut down and treated like a Leppar.
There may be a selected few with such standard answers, but remember that there are many others who encourage useful debate that can be backed by experience and results rather than heresay.....I hate when people generalise about how the "Forum" treats individuals - I am part of the "forum" but don't wish to be included in such a generalised statement.
Unlike far too many if I have no direct experience in a topic, I don't shoot off my mouth and speak $hit - I sit back, read, ask questions (not make unbacked statements), but otherwise stay quiet until the time comes when I can make some valid input. So I encourage people to provide input, but make sure you can back it up.
So lets get back to promoting thinking outside the square as stated already, encouraging people to do something different, and supporting those who are willing to share their experiences. Okay enough ranting from me, lets get some more info :duh
By the way jak this is not directed at you solely (only the first paragraph of my reply is)....it is related to everyone.
Alan
jakjones wrote:You will be treated well on this Forum only if you join the 1916 brigade,there are several standard answers to different topics and as soon as you challenge these standard answers you will be cut down and treated like a Leppar.
Last time I look my car had a Subie in it Jak. Have you gone and swapped it over to a 1916 while I was out at dinner last night. :P
Speaking of which, Subies are just another form of VW boxer. Another way of thinking outside the square. Mine is stroked, bored, watercooled, quad cammed and EFIed. Unfortunately, there is no room for an extra spark plug. 🙁
Greg, I'd love to race it in hill climbs but I don't have the time. However, I have done two motorkhanas in it so far. Gave me a much better idea of how my car really works. Just like you say.
Greg,didnt you win the last event? You must have had your twin plugs fitted, if not then 1.why spend the dollars 2. How do you know how much difference they make.
Why are there no arguments between 2275cc drivers and other people on the forum, or any other engine capacity other than 1916.Why because no one else makes the sweeping statements about how good their engines are and how every modification subsequent to theirs is a waste of money.
The only reason I wrote what I did was in response to Bat69 telling everyone to put their money where their mouth is and come race with us! i wouldnt waste my money on twin plug heads because if I spend money I want to see the most improvement without sacraficing relaibility. This would also put me over 2000cc if I was not already there!
I have raced in Rallysprint, motokhana, khanacross, supersprint and drags. I lived the last 5 years in L.A and participated in various events for fun,and there are hardly any 1916cc cars competing.
Each to their own regarding engine choice and builder, although i would never make statements about the performance of any of my motors because actions speak louder than words. If I did, I wouold certainly have the figures scanned ready to post if someone asked!Besides it can only benifit Stan if you all actually show us how good the produst is.
And who thought friday was going to be long a tedious?
Max
Certain people need to be realise exactly where they are postioned on the food chain!
Wow, talk about someone putting words in my mouth...
When did I ever mention my engine size? I never did because this is the shit that starts every single time.
"Why are there no arguments between 2275cc drivers and other people on the forum, or any other engine capacity other than 1916.Why because no one else makes the sweeping statements about how good their engines are and how every modification subsequent to theirs is a waste of money"
As for your above statement, I hope everyone here can see what a ridiculous paragraph that is.
If you're trying to infer I ever said anything like that, then it only backs up the animosity that certain individuals in the VW scene have toward each other...
Show me where I said anything bad about any size or for that matter, type, of engine.
My beef comes with people making as you say "sweeping statements" about how something is just crap, when they can't back up one iota of what they are saying....
No my car hasn't got twin plug heads on it yet....Bloody hell, I made that statement in the first reply on the first page!! They are ready to go and will be installed at the end of the year, as I've also said before.
Maybe I'll install them on my 2332cc engine instead?
Your posts come out and badmouth people's cars including mine (I don't care about the other people, they are big enough to speak for themselves) and rubbish the class that they are raced in, again, the perfect example of a VW person attacking another VW person, you went one better this time, not only rubbishing a product you have no knowledge of, but the cars and drivers themselves...
So, U2U me where to send that entry form for Buladelah, there are only a couple of corners otherwise it's flat out. Last time was 170kmh over the finish line.
I don't care what size your engine is, I'd love to see it run, doesn't matter what class you end up in.
You are taking this a little personally Greg. You must be quiet at work. Apart from asking you if you won and had done your twin plugs, I have not mentioned you. I did say that some drivers would relish the challenge(you and craig), and you also said you would happily dyno your engine when it had the change, great!
Someone asks about twin plug heads and their benefits. Lots of people argue back and forth the pros and cons.
Not as an accusition, someone asks to see the benefits on paper. After all, vw stuff is expensive, and we all want that extra power.
All of a sudden some people get defensive and do not answer and keep telling how great they are, although still nothing on paper.
Now, what are people supposed to think. Especially those who are considering buying them.
Like I said before, It could only benefit the producer of the product if you, the people racing with them, show us why they are worth the money. People were begging Craig to show his results, not to have a go, but to see if they might be something worth purchasing to make their VW faster!
Now, after all that, I will ask how a bug with a close ratio box is doing 170km/h up a hill, or were you in a supersprint. Thats what hot bugs get down the straight at Eastern Creek.
Be back to answer any questions in a while...have to go weld up the new exhaust.
Max
[Edited on 20/5/2005 by vwtool]
Certain people need to be realise exactly where they are postioned on the food chain!
Hello Volksy Friends,
When I first started this post I was hoping to get some healthy discussion and also some data
about the twin plug conversion.
Well, I got the discussion...probably not all that healthy, but still interesting. I also got alot of good info too. It even drove me to do some more research.I have come to my own conclusions.
The only dyno test info I wanted was with the twin plug system switched from one to two plugs
and back to the other plug...using the same coils and other equipment,but maybe that test cant be possible. Its not a simple thing to achieve & the mixtures & timing would have to be optimised in each test. I realy cant see the point in comparing a 009 antique with a modern ignition, no matter how many plugs its got.
Anyhow, thanks to every one to contributed to the discussion.
At least from all this we have learnt that optimum tuning of any engine combo (on the dyno & whilst driving) always is the money best spent.
On another topic(but for seprate posts) I have been involved with VW air cooled combos as small & over square as 59X85.5, right up to 90X102. All performed very well, with no hessitation or missing,when tuned with the correct air fuel ratio throughout the rev range.The ones that performed the best had the best cylinder head flow.
Well Max, it wasn't me that made it personal it was you, I don't like being told my racing class is not worthy of anything, I don't like insinuations about stuff I've supposedly said about my engine, all sorts of words were put in my mouth.
I don't say that about anybody else who is in this hobby, no matter what they are doing.
I only replied to this at the beginning page to get people thinking about the subject, not "smoke and mirrors".
This is way off topic and really I haven't much more to say about it.
I don't post anything that I haven't had experience with first hand and can back up, now I'm told I'm not doing that speed at Bulahdelah!!
Hilarious, Peter Gumleys car can do 100mph in 1st gear, you think he's only gonna get 170kmh over the finish?
Anyone who can use a calculator can work this out.
GregWard wrote:Well Max, it wasn't me that made it personal it was you, I don't like being told my racing class is not worthy of anything, I don't like insinuations about stuff I've supposedly said about my engine, all sorts of words were put in my mouth.
I don't say that about anybody else who is in this hobby, no matter what they are doing.
Greg, please highlight the parts where I put words in your mouth and insinuations about stuff you have said. I have never even spoken to anyone with reference to you in my life, let alone the forum, except when I asked you if you have your twin plugs fitted to your car. Apart from seeing your name on the forum, the first I heard of Greg Ward was that you beat Craig in the last event.
The only reason I started this argument, as I have said before, was because Bat69 said..
QUOTE by Bat69
Maybe some of you old ladies could put the money your wasting in hot air and pay for my own twin plug heads. Im more then happy to donate my race beetle to be dynoed with or without twin plugs to see the advantages.
Or may be you could put that money your wasting in hot air into your own car and get out on the track and come race with the rest of us. Then you might see some real results.
So all the old ladies, when they have finished wasting money on hot air, if we spend some money on the car and go race with them, we might, only might see some Real results.
You cannot bait a hook with that much bait, and not expect a nibble, besides its Craig who posts the best comments and replies. I was really hoping to get him to retort by accepting the free dyno offer. Not to eliminate the hardyards, not to tune it, not to critisise it, just to see the difference between single and twin set up. Please tell me why everyone ignores the fact that people will naturally be cynical and need to see that a product works. The heads obviously do something otherwise no one would have bought them. Keep them a secret till Greg puts his on the dyno, its only hampering their sucess!
Craig, if your not going to play, atleast buzz your brother and get him to chime in.
[Edited on 20/5/2005 by vwtool]
Certain people need to be realise exactly where they are postioned on the food chain!
So 56 ya wacka is that graph suppose to prove to me his a speed , get real, I reckon his tacho is way out cause I spoke to a bloke in a very fast sports sedan and he said he was only doing 174kph at the finish line so go figure.
Jak,
Now the for the real question.
Did you ASK the sport sedan driver why he was going that speed?
maybe it was bad traction or the car was not running properly.
Jak, I think you're probably right, also talking about racing hillclimb is way off topic and I started that.
Pete, more to add at the end of the year, sooner if I can build another engine instead of pulling mine down now.
Matt, depends on which class I decide to race in? dunno yet...
Here's a bit about the man himself, (from shoptalk forums)
"Jim was a rare genious. An engineer of the highest caliber I remember going up to Ventura to see his aerotech quad 4 twin turbo olds years ago, made some crazy numbers like 1200 h.p out of a 2 liter. Then later a few years ago, I went up there to take a look at some weird 3 cylinder harley he was messin around with. A W3 3 cylinders 45 degrees apart strange thing. Go into my computer file and look up Fueling, I know I have a bunch of stuff Jim sent me, he was doing something with a VW I vaguely recall him telling me, I think it was somekind of 4 valve cylinder head thing he was prototyping to use on Harleys or maybe some other thing. If I remember right, he died of cancer back around Christmas 2002 so I don't know what happened to his shop" ---------------
Jim Feuling is an inventor, author, publisher, philosopher, pilot, motorcycle and automobile designer/builder/racer and leading-edge researcher/developer in the field of engine design and fluid dynamics. Jim founded Feuling R&D/Advanced Technologies in 1974. His experience with high-efficiency engines began at an early age. He started riding motorcycles at age 5 and flying aircraft at age 11. He tuned and raced his own motorcycles and won the California State TT Championship at 16. He graduated from high school in Honolulu, Hawaii, attended Southwestern College and The University of the Seven Seas. Jim served in the United States Army Special Forces. He subsequently began building and racing sports cars and off road cars. Jim scored many off-road racing victories. He was also awarded the prestigious SCORE "Mechanic of the Year" trophy in 1976. His racing engines, high performance components and inventions have been used worldwide, from Daytona to Monaco, from off-road racing to Formula One Grand Prix to the Indy 500. Jim¼s leading edge development work includes his company¼s R&D contracts with Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, John Deere, Harley-Davidson and aircraft companies such as Cessna, Mooney and Quickie. In 1988 he received the "Outstanding Technical Achievement Award" from the National
Engineering Societies for his "clean sheet" design, development and manufacture of the 2.0L Oldsmobile "BE" Quad-4 racing engine used in the Oldsmobile Aerotech Research Vehicle (267.339 mph International Record, driven by A. J. Foyt). His radical design for the Oldsmobile BE 4-cylinder engine developed the highest specific power output of any automotive engine in history (over 1,270 hp from 121 cubic inches).
In addition to racing efforts, Jim also developed the engine for the American Honda high-mileage streamliner, capable of 500 MPG @ 55 mph, and developed the engine for the 2-place Q-2 aircraft, rated the world¼s most efficient. Another one of his highly-recognized products was the well-received 4-Valve cylinder head conversion for Harley-DavidsonÆ Evolution motorcycles. He has recently begun manufacturing his patented aluminum CENTERFIREÆ cylinder heads for Chevrolet 454 and Ford 460 truck engines. Jim is a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers, The American Society of Mechanical Engineers, The American Chemical Society, the International Society for Optical Engineering and a Senior Member of the Society of Manufacturing Engineers. He holds numerous international land speed records and is a member of the prestigious 300 MPH Chapter of the "Bonneville 200 MPH Club". The Feuling name has been closely associated with ultra-high efficiency, small-displacement engines, but he and his staff have years of experience with engines and powertrains of all sizes, from motorcycles to Indianapolis racing engines to hard-working big-rig diesels.
Jim is a consultant to a number of educational institutions. He also serves on the Board of Directors for the San Diego Automotive Museum and has served as a "Distinguished Speaker" in the SAE Industrial Lectureship Program. He is a very popular speaker and has made numerous presentations to SAE, ASME, IMA and SME. He has been a featured speaker at the Superflow Advanced Engine Technology Conference on four different occasions; beginning with the 1990 Superflow Advanced Engine Technology Conference on the topic of "Overlap Phenomenon in the Four-Stroke-Cycle Engine," again at the 1991 conference, where his subject was "High Efficiency Sound Attenuation for Internal Combustion Engines." He addressed the 1995 conference on the topic of "Mechanical Octanes" and the 1997 conference on his "ULEV High Performance Engine/Vehicle."
Jim is currently involved in numerous cutting-edge projects including his radical W3 Motorcycle. A "detonation chamber" engine design, EZEV/zero emissions equivalent vehicles, electronic aerodynamics and his awesome Bonneville Streamliner.
His hobbies include surfing, scuba diving, motorcycles, paranormal phenomenon, UFO¼s, Nikola Tesla and traveling to historic and mysterious places.
Jim has two sons, Daniel and Matthew. He and his wife Kathleen have a daughter, Theresa. They live in Southern California.
Craig, if your not going to play, atleast buzz your brother and get him to chime in.
[Edited on 20/5/2005 by vwtool]
Okay: My next air-cooled Beetle-style engine will be a Stan Pobjoy twin-plugged 1916, due the sharply-improved drivability and throttle response and overall performance this configuration gives. Possibly with injection, (either Delco or Microtech - I know people who effectively tune both)
A few years ago Greg showed me some of the research material he had collected on twin plug ignitions. This was before he had formed an opinion and before he'd even spent a cent on the idea. It is obviously a well trodden and well proven concept.
Greg is a lot better qualified to theorise on the subject than just about any of the hacks on this forum.
The man is a genius with carburetor, jetting, tuning and general understanding. He's raced and tuned a number of high compression engine combinations.
He understands the trade offs you have to live with when it comes to long duration cams, high compression with low octane fuel and the problems associated with excessive engine heat.
Those of us with modified aircooled engines try and combat these things with super-squish pistons, different combustion chamber shapes, different fuel and exotic cooling systems.
According to the literature the twin plug system should be a great benefit to an engine designed for it. But I don't think it should be treated as bolt-on horsepower.
There is a fair bit of us and them on this forum with respect to anything to do with the word "Pobjoy".
To make sure this forum actually contains useful content and not a slanging match can you all please praise, if not go easy on, the people, like Greg, who have the guts to experiment at their own expense?
CYA CT
esratrams
Craig Torrens6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
dangerous wrote:, there is no advantage unless a plug or lead fails. I'd rather spend the money on a dyno tune or head work....but then you couldn't tell your mates you had twin plug heads...
See Sides, you will soon be able to tell your mates you have twin plugs !!😂😂
dangerous wrote:Enough of the hype, how about some serious facts & dyno proof on this conversion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if an engine it tuned to its optimal, there is no advantage unless a plug or lead fails. I'd rather spend the money on a dyno tune or head work....but then you couldn't tell your mates you had twin plug heads....Just the facts please, perhaps we can all learn something. Dont get me started on cryogenics! Damn those magic beans!
You should be a journalist Craig!
Quoting the WHOLE comment makes the story seem a little more clear.(stirer!)
A lot can happen in five years,
but I would still rather spend MY money on a dyno tune and head work.
Plus with my own engines,
my intake valve leaves no room for extra plugs,(54mm).
Unfortunately at the time no one was prepared to share any dyno information,
for what ever reason,(which you can see, was what I was after).
After some first hand discussions with (sharing)people who had the conversion,
I was told the engine was noticably smoother at the lower rpms with big cams,
but probably no more maximum power, if the fuel mixtures and timing were already optimised.
They did feel it was money well spent however.
Time will tell ,
but my current thinking is that there
may be SOME extra power in SOME combinations,
but "advantage per dollar spent" is STILL to be answered.
Some of my customers have asked me to do this machining
because they plan to use THEIR engine management to fire the plugs,
and so the added cost to do the work was just the machining plugs and leads.
I am always interested in trying different things,
just a shame I have had to wait so long for any dyno input.
....oh, and if you want this work done, send it to Stan!!
Interesting thread this one hey... some good info buried in there between the usual crap and carry on.
But yeah - what dangerous says is about it... I'd always planned on going EFI, and putting twin plugs on the engine list seemed logical really... cost wasn't too much extra, and pretty simple to make the ECU deal with firing them.
Basically, my plan is to dyno and optimise the engine as it is now... 44 IDF's and single plugs with a Mallory CDI. Then when I go EFI it'lll be back to the dyno... most likely with just single plugs, then run an event or two before hooking up the second set and repeat.
btw I see that no-one's taken up the free dyno offer... wonder if there's any VW friendly types in Bris who'd donate time on their dyno ???
😉
My expectations are pretty conservative... I'm wanting for both the EFI and twin plugs to give better drivability and mid-range rather than increasing the top end. If it works out that way, AWESOME. If not, well it's something new learnt at really not very much cost.
Oh - and as to telling my mates I have twin plugs... well the non-racing ones are already massively jealous just at me having a race car, while the guys at the track get all excited about the dry sump system !!!
😂
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners
