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Fuel Injection dreams.....

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Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#43084
I've been thinking about how to build the cheapest multi point injection setup possible, and thought I would go to the forum for input / ideas. Currently, I would do the following (if I had the money);

Weld injector bosses to twin port manifold ends.
Use 2nd hand injectors
Make fuel rail from hose and fittings.
2nd hand VL commodore fuel pump.
Run larger fuel line, use original as return.
Use VN commodore throttle body, on custom built center mount manifold (made to fit standard end pieces).
Use GM Delco computer from Commodore or Camira, get custom chip burnt for it.

Only things that dont seem fairly straightforward to me are;

What to do with the engine coolant temp sensor from the GM Delco ?
Wiring harness !!!!
Surge / swirl tank and lift pump ?

Other possibility for the computer is to use a waterboxer computer - I understand that they can be rechipped ?

So, what do you experts reckon - would it all work ?

Doug

pyr0 flame-on

4,457 posts · joined Mar 2003 ·

#43090
although it would cost more money make sure to get good quality injectors, new ones would be your best bet because you dont want to have it set up then be blaming the computer for all your problems when its really just some bad injectors, thats just from my experiences.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#43112
I don't know where to start. But I think you'll find it's easier to buy a complete jap EFI motor and install it than it will be to make your own EFI.

I wouldn't use the original line as a return, as it's smaller size would cause you to get different fuel pressures on and off load.

I run 8mm lines for supply and return, used the original as a tank vent to the carbon cannister.

I have a surge tank on the LHS floorpan under the original fuel tank. The surge tank is gravity fed through a short 10mm line. The surge tank houses an original intank EFI pump.

You also need an air flow meter or MAP sensor.

Before you can chip a stock computer you need to have it running on a base curve and on a dyno. I don't think the GM base curve will work too good.

Coolant temp would work off oil temp ok.

you need an oxy sensor to work best (get good economy).

having the EFI linked to the distributor to modify advance would get the best result.

the EFI has to be at least connect to the coil so it knows when to fire the injectors. If it is connected to the coil it will fire as batch injection which isn't the best. To get true multipoint sequential injection you need the EFI closely linked to the distributor / cam position and / or a crank angle sensor.

It all get's complicated pretty quick.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Jeza Officially Full-On Dubber

353 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#43369
I had been thinking of a similar setup myself.

A friend wrecked a '85ish Leone Turbo (MPFI) so I grabbed the injector setup with sensors, computer and fuel pump.

I was basically going to mount the injectors to the TP manifolds, temp sensor in the heads, run the airflow meter that came with the car along with the fuel pump.

It's been a while since I've looked at all this but I've been researching to find voltage levels the computer expects to see from the different sensors under normal running conditions, so that if the standard sensors aren't upto it I can get an appropriate sensor and adjust it's output.

I was planning on just getting it going open loop to begin with and batch firing the injectors... all of which would not provide effecient running but at least I'd see if it goes. I could then try a Mega Squirt if I got carried away.

Then other things came up and the whole plan got put to one side... as these things do.

I tried to find info on the injectors ie flow rate and also duty cycle from the computer, but this proved difficult.

In terms of compating the Turbo thing, well a couple of idea's sprung to mind- hopefully this would have previously gone through the airflow meter so as my engine wouldn't be drawing as much air (as was previously forced through) it wouldn't be an issue (ie everything would be adjusted appropriately.. if it stayed with in the parameters set by the Subi engineers?), or apply the appropraite signal to the computer so it thinks it's not on boost.

As for fuel lines, I had though of using the original and fitting a new one for a return, and I was hoping to avoid using a surge tank... which may show up some ignorance, but I haven't seen or read much on these yet.

Like Wes say's... A lot to think about but there are good sites on the Web such as the Mega Squirt page
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

and this
http://www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/partslist.htm

Oh and seeing as all I wanted to do was inject my 1600TP I had though about investigating factory VW injection to, modern stuff or the stuff off an old T3?

Any comments any one..... hopefully some help to you Doug

Cheers
Jeremy

[Edited on 2-5-2003 by Jeza]
......random gibberish for today.......

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#43373
Jeremy, good to see someone else has investigated it well and figured it was all too hard 😀

The engine would cut out in corners without a surge tank / swirl pot.

With a carby car, when you corner the fuel pump suction may temporarily suck some air as the fuel sloshes around. The engine will happily continue to run with the fuel in the float bowls.

With an EFI pump, the instant the pump sucks air, the pressure is the fuel rail will be lost and the engine will misfire. A surge tank or swirl pot ensures the EFI pump always has fuel.

One of my mates put an XF era EFI motor in a XP era falcon and figured he didn't need a surge tank. So now his engine cuts out in corners and under hard braking or acceleration if the tank isn't completely fairly full.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#43400
I disagree - but dont think I ever thought it was a simple exercise. I would think it would be easier than shopping your car up to fit a V6 in it....... 🙂

No, seriously all digs aside I respect (and amire) what wes has done with his baja. It is an eminently sensible modification that has achieved what he wanted it to do. And I bet he grins ear to ear every time he drives it. I would.

Fuel lines, surge tank and MAP sensor are not significant technical difficulties in my mind. I would have more problems creating a wiring loom 🙂

Flintstones Custom Title Time!

1,077 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#43402
Why don't you just go with an aftermarket computer??
Get something like an MT4 microtech, it comes with a loom all labelled.
No need to work out what goes where....
Plus you don't need to have an airflow meter, just the basic hardware requirements.

Cheers
D

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#43407
well I'm not saying my V6 was the easiest conversion ever, but there are some engines that could be jammed in a vw engine at lower cost and more easily than making EFI work on the VW.

One conversion that comes to mind is a naturally aspirated suby motor. Dan put a EJ20 in his kombi with very little effort. He used the suby wiring loom, although cleaned up a bit I believe.

I just used the MX6 loom, no dramas there either.

depends on whether your better with mechanical or electrical stuff. 🙂
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Jeza Officially Full-On Dubber

353 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#43466
Well I won't say that I've shelved the idea.... it's just taken a back seat for the moment. I've been busy, both VW and work stuff... then the 1600 TP gave up anyway, so it was rescued with a quick bodge to keep it going- so currently that is the first thing needing attention. But then there is the matter of some Porsche brakes I came across the other day for a very nice price.... and the list goes on 😀

However each time I do a bit of reading I learn a bit more... so I need to look at surge tanks tx for the snippet of info Wes, makes sense really.

Doug the wiring loom isnt all that bad really. Make sure you get the connectors that go with the computer(with say 100mm of wire to solder to), and the ones that come with each sensor, it doesn't matter if they are not joined. then it's a matter of getting a good electrical diagram for the vehicle the parts came from and running a highlighter over the important bits ie wires to important sensors. Read through the manual for what the computer needs and what it can do with out then fit parts in the appropriate places and join the sensor to it's position on the computer.

Certainly to me it I can see it fitting together easier than I could make a V6 fit into a Baja... but then I work a an Electronic's Tech... and I believe Wes is a Mechanical Engineer?

Good luck and let us know how you get on. I may even get to work on mine this weekend 🙂

Oh and (dare I say it...) check outr the shoptalk forums for the FI stuff there. If you select an appripriate car you may find it works a lot easier... it may be a simple efi, but it will still be a step up on carbs in my book

Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......

70AutoStik Insano Dub Head

730 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#43567
Most of your ideas seem sound. You wouldn't need a surge/swirl tank or lift pump if you use a modern fuel-mounted pump (again find at wrecker's.) The cost of reprogramming the OEM computer would well outweigh the cost of a number (or most) of aftermarket boxes - we live in the land of EFI! (some of the best ECMs in the world originate from Australia.) Most aftermarket ECMs include a harness, and the use of a "coolant" sensor can be made redundant ('though you can fit a cyl head sensor for use with some.)

BTW - the original fuel line has been used as a return by some professionals a lot more experienced than some commentators.

Jeza Officially Full-On Dubber

353 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#43590
More good info

Thanks 70Autostick.... trying not to take over Doug's thread of course 😀

I had another thought last night...

A friend suggested to me a while ago that if I collected all the parts from one model of car (fuel injection) which is designed to work together then all I maybe changing is the flow rate. So the volume of air being sucked in would less and the computer would compensate for this as if the engine was going slower. Assuming these volumes are still with in the computers parameters.

If you collect parts from one car and a computer from another make sure the sensor levels are equivilent and can work together. Most probably are now days.

And yes, Aussie is the king of EFI from what I understand. A Friend of mine has a Microtech system he's fitting to his T4 powered beetle (long term project), he's well impressed with the quality and value of the kit.

Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......

70AutoStik Insano Dub Head

730 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#43681
No, a number of factors (capacity, stroke, rod ratio, cam, intake parameters, exhaust parameters, C.R., cooling, etc) affect the requirements of an engine. Most ECMs can only cope with a variation in output of about 5-10% without calibration. If you really wanted to do this, a Wolf system (quite affordable and easy to program) would easily outperform any mismatched OEM ECM.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#43721
70AutoStik wrote:You wouldn't need a surge/swirl tank or lift pump if you use a modern fuel-mounted pump (again find at wrecker's.)
You still would need a swirl pot inside the tank. A stock EFI car has the surge tank (called a swirl pot when inside the tank) essentially built into the inside of the normal fuel tank. So if you take out the intank pump and put it in a vw tank it is no longer in a swirl pot and will have problems.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

reub VWRX is gone...

2,054 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#43759
An ea82 would be a great budget conversion. My mate had one in his beach buggy. His was the efi turbo one. The engine cost him $600. He bought a second hand microtech fuel only ecu for $500 and got a base fuel map from microtech for the ea82 engine. He replaced the original distributor with an earlier one so he didn't need an ingnition and fuel ecu. Not sure where he got the adapter plate but you could get a flywheel, clutch and adapter plate for $500-$700. Of course you haev wiring to look at and the fuel pump, lines, surge tank and radiator but surely you would end up with a better result.....maybe. Just my thought anyway.

Am not trying to step on any toes at all!!!

Just figure for a little more outlay you could have a nice later model engine designed for efi rather than adapting efi for a type 1 engine.

Here is Yianni's sweet conversion.



PS. just to also update you Doug, here is a shot of my exhaust (not to go off the subject.....sorry) and you talk wiring. Look what I have to tidy up.

Reub

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#43794
Hi

Im using Autronic SMC and Im very pleased with it, but its not cheap. I have heard very good comments on using the Delco system with special altering software. The cheapest way to get a swirl pot is to cut open your petrol tank and fit one in your tank along with a suitable pump.

I used an http://www.injectionperfection.com.au/ 1/2 litre surge tank and a Carter lift pump, which is an expensive route to take.

Leigh Harris is also using an Autronic system, it uses a Camira water temp sensor, he used this sensor in his oil and it works fine, he tried a head temp sensor from a 76 EFI kombi but it didnt want to talk to the Autronic ECU.

Systems with MAP sensors are better on forced induction systems.

Aftermarket ECUs need a TDC and piston position reference, I used a 2.6 Magna dissy which is easily made to fit a Beetle etc. case and has TDC and piston position reference.

1302Steve

70AutoStik Insano Dub Head

730 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#44161
1302Steve wrote:Hi

The cheapest way to get a swirl pot is to cut open your petrol tank and fit one in your tank along with a suitable pump.

I used an http://www.injectionperfection.com.au/ 1/2 litre surge tank and a Carter lift pump, which is an expensive route to take.


1302Steve
Oooh - you just went and proved Wes wrong, and he's _never_ wrong: you're gonna cop it now! 😀

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#44194
Hi

The best thing about external swirl pot/surge tank is that you can run a filter before the pumps.

There was an article in an early ZOOM magazine about fitting one in a the tank of an old skyline.

1302Steve

Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#44328
Reub - exhaust looks sweet. Feel free to take over the post !! 🙂 All I can say about the wiring is - YIKES !!!!

I've heard that the GM Delco systems can be made to suit any engine - just a matter of finding someone with the Kalmaker software that knows how to use it well enough to tune your application. I've even heard of it being used on a 2 cyl motorbike too !!!

KruizinKombi Seriously Obsessed Cyber Dubber

3,493 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#44395
I've thought about this a bit in the past; I'd be using manifolds from an injected type 3, with an aftermarket computer. The cheaper ones are around $800 (dashboard programmable) but I'd probably prefer a laptop version with full timing control etc. Modern throttle bodies are a good idea, as is the surge tank of some description and the closed-loop capability (self tuning via oxygen sensor in the exhaust). Aftermarket systems should come with all the info you need for the wiring, if not the wiring loom itself. Some modern aftermarket systems also have the ability to richen the mixture, retard timing, or control water injection, thermo fans, etc. to help prevent overheating, so you can really make peak power when conditions allow it. :thumb

If you want the cheapest fuel injection possible, use the system from a stock type 3 (or kombi) and modify it slowly as the budget allows. 🙂
Kruizin Kol

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#44459
70AutoStik wrote:
1302Steve wrote:Hi

The cheapest way to get a swirl pot is to cut open your petrol tank and fit one in your tank along with a suitable pump.

I used an http://www.injectionperfection.com.au/ 1/2 litre surge tank and a Carter lift pump, which is an expensive route to take.


1302Steve
Oooh - you just went and proved Wes wrong, and he's _never_ wrong: you're gonna cop it now! 😀
Actually I respect Steve because unlike some people he has actually been there and done that so he knows.

There is nothing wrong with Steve's suggestion, he said you need a swirl pot / surge tank, as I have been saying. In fact didn't I say "You still would need a swirl pot inside the tank." :puke

I found it easier to make an external one. If someone finds it easier to cut open and reweld a FUEL TANK than good luck to them. I prefer not to weld fuel tank whereever possible.

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by Baja Wes]
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#44571
Hi

Wes, I dont like welding fuel tanks either, but when I welded fittings onto mine for 1 exit and 2 returns I welded on the outside and then just drilled through the fittingsa when i was done.

I mounted my swirl pot on the chassis where the master cylinder would be on a LHD car.

A lot has been said about fitting a WRX or late Subby motor, its not that simple if you want have it under the lid on a street Beetle.

This link is to monsterbuses site and shows that its not that easy.

1302Steve

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#44640
1302Steve wrote:Hi

Wes, I dont like welding fuel tanks either, but when I welded fittings onto mine for 1 exit and 2 returns I welded on the outside and then just drilled through the fittingsa when i was done.

I mounted my swirl pot on the chassis where the master cylinder would be on a LHD car.
that's basically the same as what I did. I braised a 10mm outlet on the stock tank, and mounted a surge tank on the floorpan where a LHD car's master cylinder would be. I was a little bit different because I mounted an intank pump inside the surge tank, instead of using an external pump.

WRX engine's take a lot of car mods to make them fit, just look at Reubs car.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.