Turbo charging a 1200 ('64 Beetle)

shock Learner Dubber

2 posts · joined Nov 2005 · 28 Nov 2005, 11:57 am

#432835

Hi,

I'm not sure if this has been answered before, if it has, could some one please point me in the right direction... I was looking at turbo charging my 1200, and was wondering what experiences anyone has had with it? I'll do all my own fabrication, etc, just need to know what's involved. Looking at the engine, I don't think it should be too hard. Is there anything I need to keep an eye out for?

Cheers,

Raj

shiftyvw Wolfsburg Wizard

523 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 28 Nov 2005, 5:11 pm

#432936

How much power do you want? its not the most sensible way to get a bit more power, Build a bigger stronger motor like a 1776, have fun with that (youll probably have as much or more power than a 1200 turbo) and then turbo that!
How much power does a stock 1200 have? I dont think you would reliably double it with a standard engine.
just my 2c!

testing 1 2 3...

matara Custom Title Time!

1,342 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 28 Nov 2005, 6:46 pm

#432979

If you've ever seen an engine blow contest at a show? Strapping a turbo on your 1200 would give you a similar effect if it ever pushed enough gas to get the turbo going. Get Bob Tomlinsons Turbomania book and it will give you some good theory before you decide what to do.

Saying that I would be curious to hear a 1200 spooling up 🙂

Cheers

Steve

tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 · 28 Nov 2005, 8:33 pm

#433020

I say go right ahead with your project.
With a mild boost job, there is no reason you cannot at least double your current stock 40 horses and do it perfectly reliably.
I would consider freshening your engine while you have it out. The stock CR is quite low and need not be altered.
Consider using a To2 (non watercooled) off a Nissan Pulsay ET turbo (usually about 120 bucks)
I would pull thru a 45mm HIF SU (centerfloat) and use an agressive needle, probably start with a BAC.
If you spend more than 4 to 500 bucks doing the job then suck eggs.
Thats quite a bit cheaper than a 1776.

Go for it dude and have some cheap fun, you will never regret it.

L8tr
E

Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....

matara Custom Title Time!

1,342 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 28 Nov 2005, 10:54 pm

#433085

Yeah go over to the shoptalkforums.com Forced Induction forum. There are a few people who have asked the same question on there too.

lugnuts Custom Title Time!

1,070 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 29 Nov 2005, 1:52 am

#433113

At one of the dyno days there were 2x 1200,one got 19.9hp and the other got 20hp,the next up was mine a 1300sp which was wayyyy past its used by date and it got 37hp.:o

shock Learner Dubber

2 posts · joined Nov 2005 · 29 Nov 2005, 12:37 pm

#433212

tassupervee wrote:I say go right ahead with your project.
With a mild boost job, there is no reason you cannot at least double your current stock 40 horses and do it perfectly reliably.
I would consider freshening your engine while you have it out. The stock CR is quite low and need not be altered.
Consider using a To2 (non watercooled) off a Nissan Pulsay ET turbo (usually about 120 bucks)
I would pull thru a 45mm HIF SU (centerfloat) and use an agressive needle, probably start with a BAC.
If you spend more than 4 to 500 bucks doing the job then suck eggs.
Thats quite a bit cheaper than a 1776.

Go for it dude and have some cheap fun, you will never regret it.

L8tr
E

Thanks for that bit of advice, I don't expect to pay a lot and it's just a cheap bit of fun.. not talking serious power here, just something interesting...

But yeah, sounds like a good plan, I'll look into getting those parts, and I definately want to do all the work I can myself. Having tinkered with engines in one way or another, it's a good little project to play with.

I'll let you guys know how I go. 🙂

ae86slideways Learner Dubber

1 post · joined Dec 2005 · 12 Dec 2005, 10:22 pm

#437682

hi there are you still going ahead with the turbo?
im looking to try the same. except for the worry of crank/flywheel breaking it should work as long as you go easy on the psi.
im looking at the low bugget.com website and his setup seems basic and has been a success.
only problem is i have 2 1200 motors and no twinport 1600,so im tempted just to see how strong they are first till i find a 1600tp
i usually like to blow through standard carb,wonder if the vw carb would handle it?
anyway good luck and go for it!

tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 · 13 Dec 2005, 1:37 pm

#437815

Break a crank/fly?? nah, not unless you are planning on really revving its tits off in which case you are approaching the whole job in the wrong manner.

I would just use a stock 1200 cam and use some stock 1600 rockers for a bit of extra lift. This arrangement will not promote revving it and a To2 sized turbo will be spooling and running well by about 2500 rpm even on a 1200.
So long as the valve springs are shimmed to about 70-75 Lb seat pressure or so, the engine will happily rev up to 5000 rpm. This is more than adequate rev range to use with a stock gearset.

The only changes i would make to the entire setup is to use a higher volume oil pump and an external full flow filter and cooler and do away with the stock bypass cooler in the fan housing altogether. This promotes better airflow to # 3 cylinder.
A decent sized cooler and filter setup will add a good amount of extra oil to the stock setup which is a further good thing.

Blowing thru a standard (1600) carb would be a good strategy except for the lack of any boost enrichment. You can overcome this via frigging with the combinations of main/air corrector jets but a compromise is pretty much the best you will end up with at the end of the day.

I would also look at relieving the combustion chambers as much as possible and blend out any edges and corners as well to help offset any heat buildup and associated pre-ignition and/or detonation.

Another final thing would be to use a 12V flywheel/starter with its bigger clutch and have a clutch cover with a bit more clamping force using a stock organic plate.

YeeHar! Have fun men.

L8tr
E

Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 19 Dec 2005, 11:59 am

#439457

I think the t02 turbo from an exa/pulsar et is too big for the project, not to mention they are all flogged out with an average of 150,000k's on them. I'd go with a single turbo from the EJ20TT liberty twin turbo 2lt engine.

It will make boost just above 1200 rpm making a dramatic improvement to drivability and low end torque. It will easily hold boost to 5000 too as the ej20tt's rev to 7000.

I'd suggest keeping the induction side of things simple for starters and use a webber 40idf side draft as a pull thru turbo system. This keeps the fuel system simple (no need for efi pumps, rising rate regs, return lines etc), unlike a blow thru that needs a lot of additional gear. So long as you've got a 3.5lb regulated pump it will do. You could probably just use a mechanical pump from a 1600.

As for jetting. 55 idle jets, 130 mains and 170-180 air correction jets. Email me if you've got any questions.

tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 · 19 Dec 2005, 1:27 pm

#439475

iswinkels wrote:I think the t02 turbo from an exa/pulsar et is too big for the project, not to mention they are all flogged out with an average of 150,000k's on them.

Mmm I dunno Ian, The T2/To2 is only just suitable for the job on a 1500. They run out of "puff" at barely a bar on a 1500 and would work beautifully on a 1200 leaving room for more fun and boost games later on.

Besides, I would seriously doubt that many of them are still original anymore.
Of the 5 if them i have acquired, the worse case is a crack across the housing between the wastegate and the exhaust outlet. The most I have paid for a T02 is 140 bucks with postage.

Rebuild kits for them are plentiful and cheap as they are identical to the T25 turbos of SR20det's.
They are not rocket science. As long as there is no physical damage to the impellers then re-balancing is not necessary and the average mechanical dude can rebuild them observing a couple of important points.

Pulling thru a Weber is nice (but expensive) but you cannot go past a 45mm HIF SU with temp compensating.
Found on many old Volvos and Range Rovers. Ive never paid more than 40 dollars each for them.
Even a Stromberg CD175 works well. They tend to have wear issues with the cold start cvalve tho.
Sidefloat 45mm SU' are not a lot worse that anything else but are subject to fuel surging and related fuelling issues if not oriented with the float bowl to the front of the car.
There are literally dozens of japanes bike constant depression carbs (40mm plus) off a legion of big arsed engines that will work fine as well. Altho fettling needles suitable for turbo use would be a hassle for them.
I made dozens of needles for my SU's by grabbing a needle in a battery drill and sanding them down to suit!
All IMHO of course.

L8tr
E

Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 19 Dec 2005, 3:47 pm

#439496

Thats kind of a funny post? I'm not sure if you are recommending them or not? Running more boost is great but whats the use of its only there from 3000-5000 RPM? To me it makes more sense to use a smaller turbo to spool at low as possible RPM and have it boost torque thru the entire rpm range from idle.

I wouldn't consider running a t25's off a CA18det's or sr20 as they are way too large for a 1200. Sorry to disagree tassupervee, but it would be spooling to full boost at about 3700 RPM which is way too late for a 1200cc engine. Plus their ceramic turbine wheels are crap and tend to fly to pieces if you boost spike above 14lb. I broke 3 nissan turbo's running 12lb (occasionally boost spiking to 16lb because of the gated boost controller) before I upgraded to a GT28-320 on my 1641. Only the t25's of the S15's had the steel wheel, but they also were rated to above 200kw I think?

Here's some info on nissan turbo's...
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:yOx3hDjJs9MJ:www.wardriving.com.au/vl/turbos.htm+dave+nissan+turbo+magazine+vg30+rb20&hl=en

Considering the 15 years of advancements in aerodynamics and ball bearing turbo techonology since the EXA's were new, it would be hard to not run an IHI vf ball bearing turbo from the liberty gt's. Tho if you were looking at a new turbo the GT12 or GT15 would be a really nice match for producing great low end response, plus potential for 120-130hp at max boost(flywheel hp). They are cheap too at about $1100.

[ Edited on 19-12-2005 by iswinkels ]

tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 · 19 Dec 2005, 4:25 pm

#439501

iswinkels wrote:I wouldn't consider running a t25's off a CA18det's or sr20 as they are way too large for a 1200. Sorry to disagree tassupervee, but it would be spooling to full boost at about 3700 RPM which is way too late for a 1200cc engine. Plus their ceramic turbine wheels are crap and tend to fly to pieces if you boost spike above 14lb. I broke 3 nissan turbo's running 12lb (occasionally boost spiking to 16lb because of the gated boost controller) before I upgraded to a GT28-320 on my 1641

[ Edited on 19-12-2005 by iswinkels ]

Nonononononono... youare misunderstanding me Ian.
Im not talking a T25, T25G or a T28 bb or plain etal at all.
Yes, too large particularly the T28.
Im talking the much smaller T2 (water-cooled) and To2 (earlier non-watercooled) off the 1500cc Pulsar ET's and Good turbo choice for 1200. These turbos spool very low down, way low down on a 1500 and would make a marvelous addition to a 1200.
One of the issues with Pulsar turbos and theirreported lack of reliability was the fact that the small To2 ran too close to its efficiency maps in order to reduce lag and lower boost RPM's. Also suffered from aerodynamic limitations as you correctly state resulting in elevated inlet inlet temps for a given boost pressure. Once the boys got boost happy, they surged them or detonated the engines.

BTY, Sorry, T25's & T25G's from CA18det/ SR20et blah do NOT have ceramic turbine wheels and not all T28's, run ceramic wheels either.

I am actually running a T25G off a 200SX (SR20et) and that is probably a bit overkill for a shopping trolley E15et on stock boost.
This T25G/1500 spools nicely at around 2200 and makes full boost (8psi) at about 2500 rpm on a dead stock 1500. However, it is a bit laggy from throttle off and since my wife drives the car, I am retro-fitting the stock T2 which spools very quickly and ,makes full boost from as low as 2200 but will not go out of breath and is relatively lag free.

Im surprised you had trouble with ceramic turbines unless you were well exceeding the efficiency range of those particular turbines and or burped them a couple of times.
As a rule they usually are quite reliable and are happy to boost up well but NOT over their efficiency map. they dont like it much.

Umm, 1100 bux may seem cheap enough for a new turbo but dont you get the idea that this dude wants to do it a little bit cheaper than that?
Thats why I reccommended the To2 in the first place.
Plenty around, cheap as, pretty much bullet-proof and very simple to re-bush and re-seal. Plus plenty of scope for boostiing up later on.
Another good option would be an IHI RHB-3 off a Daihatsu Charade turbo. A 1000cc engine that revved happily to 7000. Turbos for them can be had for close to peanuts.
And so-on and so-on.
L8tr
E

Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....