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Lsd and drift setup?

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bajaben Officially Full-On Dubber

222 posts · joined May 2005 ·

#440972
just wondering what the best set up would be on a swing axle for drifting, also is there anywhere is aus that sells lsd for a beetle, really thing im gonna need it once it gets serious. hope someone can help, thanks
trunk monkey, because sometime getting your car back just isn't enough

DIY-DUB Custom Title Time!

1,591 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#440973
im no expert on swingers but wouldnt drifting in a swinger be insane anyway? they tend 2 flip if cornered hard to my knowledge, but nice to see someone else has an interest in drifting, go for it man, 2006: year of the dori beetles!

bajaben Officially Full-On Dubber

222 posts · joined May 2005 ·

#440996
i have had it going in the wet so far, a alittle bit of fishies and cornering sideways and stuff, not too bad but to much body roll. i think with an lsd and a camber compensator it might not be so bad, im just looking for a place that sells them, don't wanna have to freight it from the US. yeah drifting rocks, and imagine the looks when it happens, hehe
trunk monkey, because sometime getting your car back just isn't enough

DIY-DUB Custom Title Time!

1,591 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#440998
yep, fun aint it, beetles rule sideways, and yes ppl certainly dont expect it thats for sure, when mine is back together it will be seeing a wee bit more sideways action whit its "little" improvements

bugboyz Casual Dubber

21 posts · joined Jul 2004 ·

#441029
use IRS no problem

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#441052
Swinger with limiting straps around the axle tubes would work.

Better than IRS (for drifting) ......... dunno

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

bajaben Officially Full-On Dubber

222 posts · joined May 2005 ·

#441184
where can i get limiting straps, and how do you fit them??? just scared of the flipping that they like to do when coming back the other way.
trunk monkey, because sometime getting your car back just isn't enough

Anthiron The Baja Rejuvenation Begins

4,936 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#441243
dude dont do stupid things in a car that wasnt made for it.

if u want to drift buy an old celica or something.......or u could just not participate in riceboy sports.

dont u have a baja? u should be jacking it up and going 2 4bie parks not drifting.

u will kill yourself in a swinger trying to corner fast. sliding or not.
62/60 model bug eye baja bug, (Full Build in Progress)
1974 Chevrolet Luv
1970 MK2 Ford Cortina GT
1979 Yamaha RX125 Two Stroke tracker project.
2004 Harley Davidson Sportster XL Custom

tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#441247
Bwaaahahahahhaha Anthiron, you sound like my old man!!!! LOL.

Compensator straps can also be known as wheel "droop" limiters.
They can be cables, straps or even steel rods that prevent the wheels from "drooping" too far when unloaded (tucking under).
You can, at a real pinch, use the shock travel to limit droop but thie requires some pretty fancy changes to the inside of the shock to prevent the shock pulling apart when it "top" out.

I reckon a drifting beetle, or better still, a Kombi, would look simply awesome!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....

DIY-DUB Custom Title Time!

1,591 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#441251
i know of someone drifting a kombi at a defensive driving or something course, it went brilliantly to my knowlegde, also a kombi with a red Z in penrith drifts in the wet with no issues, other than being really difficult to stop...

bajaben Officially Full-On Dubber

222 posts · joined May 2005 ·

#441328
Anthiron, if your not gonna help then don't say anything, hows that sound, celica is a front wheel drive therefore would be shit for drifting and im looking for different, and something i wanna do not something you want me to do. i have had it sideways a fair few times and it goes fine, just takes a bit to stop the body swaying once you get it back in. please if anyone thinks they should post bullshit on here dissing other peoples ideas, start your own thread and stop wasting my time.
trunk monkey, because sometime getting your car back just isn't enough

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#441686
Anthiron wrote:dude dont do stupid things in a car that wasnt made for it.

if u want to drift buy an old celica or something.......or u could just not participate in riceboy sports.

dont u have a baja? u should be jacking it up and going 2 4bie parks not drifting.

u will kill yourself in a swinger trying to corner fast. sliding or not.
Porsche spyders, 356s and formula Vees are are swingaxle. People manage to powerslide them no problems. It's like Tassupervee said, you need to have the suspension set up right and then it's no problem.

Ben, not all Celicas are FWD, infact the best ones were 4wd or Rwd, IE GT4 group rallye, and the early RA twin cam models were great rwd race cars. They are quite sought after now. The Fwd models are the povo pack jobs.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#441692
pete wood wrote:Ben, not all Celicas are FWD, infact the best ones were 4wd or Rwd, IE GT4 group rallye, and the early RA twin cam models were great rwd race cars. They are quite sought after now. The Fwd models are the povo pack jobs.
HEY...don't forget the old TA series with the twin cam upgrade....used to ralley one a LONG time ago...excellent stuff. Sliding a swinger is easy enough...just stop the wheels from tucking like mentioned earlier and all will be good...where in Townsville are you planning on driving this????????

[ Edited on 27-12-05 by Mick H ]
tssnq.com.au

Anthiron The Baja Rejuvenation Begins

4,936 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#441694
ignore my post if u want its my opinion but dont bag me when i didnt take a stab at you.

i said get an old celica not a new front wheel drive one.

i didnt say it couldnt be done. nor do i claim to be a suspension expert however would someone like to argue a swing axle would be better than double jointed rear suspension?
62/60 model bug eye baja bug, (Full Build in Progress)
1974 Chevrolet Luv
1970 MK2 Ford Cortina GT
1979 Yamaha RX125 Two Stroke tracker project.
2004 Harley Davidson Sportster XL Custom

bajaben Officially Full-On Dubber

222 posts · joined May 2005 ·

#441728
hey mick, i was your manx the other day parked out side the dojo thing on bundock street i think, down the far end in wenst end, there is a place in the bohle where me and my mates with r32 gts-t skylines go and mine hangs out just as well if not better than theres.
You would think an 4wd car wouldn't be nice at all for drifting cause its normally no slide or no control with all 4 wheels spinning, unless you wanna do all the 2wd conversion stuff etc etc.

Anyway back on topic, where can i get an lsd and camber compensator from or will the axle limiters work just as well? and do i just get them from a 4wd shop???
trunk monkey, because sometime getting your car back just isn't enough

Quoll Officially Full-On Dubber

232 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#442071
I think welding up the diff would be cheaper then getting a lsd (1000+USD?) as long as you don't plan on using it as a road car. I picked up my compensator by ringing around, I got the bar from one place and the saddle and mounts from another lol. I guess a good start for a drift setup would be to look at peoples motorkahna settings and go from their I have a base setup in my how to hot rod vw engines book if you are interested. But as with all motorsport get ready to spend some $ 🙂

[ Edited on 29-12-2005 by Quoll ]

humpty Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,336 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#443324
Drifting can be done in a swinger or a double jointed. but if a swinger is what you got, then that can be made to do it....

Forget the camber compensater IMHO....
I have never liked the way they make the car behave when you go sideways...
I have never done drift, but I have competed in sprints and autokhana's on bitumen.

In my last bug (LP front, short axle rear), I had gas shocks on the rear (GR2's, cheap and an ok shock, adjustable KONI's would be better)), good oils on the front, a home made adjustable sway bar on the front (started with a WHITELINE bar, 17mm dia?). I added spring plate retainers (Bar stock that clamped an either side of the springplate guide slot under the shock tower) and bump stop limiters (half a 17mm nut welded to the bottom bumptstop) on the rear, and adjustable bumpstops on the front (Cut down an transaxle output shaft to the spline, get the centre out of an old clutch plate, weld an arm to it, make it good and heavy and gusset it). It replaces the factory bumpstop on the front.

Tyre choice makes a huge difference as does tyre pressures....I ran 195/50-15's on the front (not ideal, maybe something like a 175/55 or 60 would've been better) and 205/60-15's on the rear. I ran 40psi front and 20 rear.... High pressure in the front made the car very responsive, low pressure in the back made the rear move more. In the drifting world this set-up may not be the best way to go....More trial and error!
Get the best tyre you can for the front. Look for something that is rated for that axle weight. On the rear....Go for something that will slip, but controlable with little sidewall movement.... Something that is also rated for the vehicle weight....Most tyres are made for heavy cars with iron blocks in the front. So this might take some research....Yokies make some tyres that look good for the front...I think the tyre Im thinking of is made for the Lotus Elise... Not sure of the name of it!

With only around 100hp on tap (if that!) I could get that baby to step out with a sidestep of the clutch, and foot full of revs and a flick of the steering, and sometimes a touch of handbrake, if the bitumen is coarse....

And you car should be lowered in the usual fashion....At least 1 spline in the rear, but trial and error will be need to get it right for you. If you can get some camber in the front, that would help also....At least one pack to caster shims in there, two would be better, while your at it... An old trick used by the 356 boys was to bend the trailing arms to get more camber...Not sure how that would effect your shims on a LP front, but your suspension travel would be naught!...On BJ front, get some lowered eccentric BJ adjusters and lowered BJ's too.

If you looking for a LSD...This is the only one to go for, that is available off the shelf.

http://www.quaife.co.uk/products/atbdifferentials.htm

I think some ppl have modified other types to fit, but I have never seen them. So cant comment here...

Like I said...I've never drifted, but I have done loads of handbrake turns and controlled low speed slides in autokhanas..In VW, this is how you get it around very tight turns if you dont have a lot of power....So it may be a starting point for a good drift dub.... At high speed my car was rock solid, at slow speeds it was chuckable as hell....And everyone said I should go IRS....To qute TSV... Bwaaahahahahhah!
You can make a swinger turn safely, just dont expect it to turn flat an fast if its running high and dry...Get it down low, with good rubber and minor suspension upgrades.... The rest is just in the tuning and you driving style...

If you want to see my car in action, there is a few mpeg's on my www on the dowload section...

Best of luck....

[ Edited on 2-1-2006 by humpty ]

[ Edited on 2-1-2006 by humpty ]
FUCH your early!

http://www.noh2o.org/

MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? Wolfsburg Wizard

591 posts · joined May 2004 ·

#443711
Do it its great fun my last baja was a swinger with a type 4 it was great fun in the wet or dry i had 31*10.5 on the back and the same set up for offroad the art to swinger drifting is go into a corner i bit fast then turn and back off the jucie and all of a sudden your sidways be carefull this happens really qwick and then just flatten it but if you don't things will get ugly best to practice in the wet first. i don't know what engine you have but with the type 4 it had heaps of torque so you didn't have top clutch it and it works better turning right as the drive wheel on vws is the left. have fun

tim
You only need two tools
Wd40 if it don't move and it should
Duct tape if it move's and it shouldn't

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#443796
Dude, please don't tell people with skinny street tyres to do this. That's how you roll a swinger over. I think you'll find the rear of your car was over tyred and changing the camber drastically (as you backed off the throttle), lessened the footprint of the 10.5 inch wide tyres and it let go. That's what made it go sideways. I'm surprised you didn't turn it over.

Humpty has the right idea. Start with lots of pressure in ya back tyres in the wet or on the dirt. Also, getting the scandinavian flick down is good too.

try this...
"Scandinavian Flick

Applies To: All cars which are not equipped with automatic transmissions nor ABS brakes.
Usage: Similar to pendulum, but only serves as destabilizer. Safer and more appropriate to use at extremely slippery conditions.
Theory of Operation: Rear wheels are not given a chance to regain traction after being locked up from the quick sudden rotation of the car.
Instructions: Instead of braking normally in a straight line:

1. Flick the car slightly away from the turn.
2. Immediately release throttle and Apply full braking (wheels must lock) and clutch (or else the engine will stall). The car will now head down the road in a sideways skid pointing away from the turn, decelerating.
3. Put shifter into appropriate gear and turn steering wheel all the way in the direction of the upcoming turn.
4. As the turn arrives, let go of brakes. The car will slingshot into the turn in the same was as if a pendulum was used. Let go of clutch and get back on the throttle.

Notes: If you hesitate when first applying the brakes you may go off the road or the front wheels may lock before the rear, making the car aim itself back in the direction of travel.


RWD Power Slide

Applies To: RWD
Usage: Eliminate risk of fatal under steer on less than ideal roads, resulting in higher cornering speeds.
Theory of Operation: Spinning rear tires have decreased lateral grip.
Instructions: If the engine power is sufficient to break traction simply flick the car into the turn. Immediately apply enough throttle to break traction while at the same time counter steering the car (newbies will notice that if you do not do this at the same time as you apply the throttle you will end up spinning out).

More throttle = More lateral tail slide, less forward propulsion.
Less throttle = Less lateral tail slide, more forward propulsion.

You must find the proper balance. The ideal is as little tail slide as possible, just enough to stop it from regaining grip and under steering.

To stop sliding, back off throttle gently and apply opposite lock (relative to the turn).

Notes: Stronger engine is easier to work with. Limited-slip or locked differential is nearly a must-have for proper operation. It is possible to use the end of a powerslide to pendulum into another, in the opposite direction. Useful when going from one turn that leads directly into the other. Theory of operation is the same as the final moments of the scandinavian flick."

Got it from here...

http://www.ausubaru.com/main/index.php
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard

403 posts · joined May 2005 ·

#443910
Adjustable Z bars on a swinger is the go.Its cheap easy set up:thumbJVLRacing

bat69 There is no status

791 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·

#444055
pete wood wrote:"Scandinavian Flick

Applies To: All cars which are not equipped with automatic transmissions nor ABS brakes.
Usage: Similar to pendulum, but only serves as destabilizer. Safer and more appropriate to use at extremely slippery conditions.




You can still do scandos in autos and cars with ABS. the tranny and the brakes have bugger all to do with it really.

Scandoing a car is not just for destabilizer, quit the opposite. The idea of a scando is to slow the car (which is more effective then stopping in a straight line in some circumstances), and to set the car up/position the car for a corner.

Plus, you can do a scando at any speed. I find they are more effective at stopping (especially) and positioning a car at high speed then when going slow and can be done in any condition (dirt condition that is).

BTW I wouldnt use a LSD if you were going to do drifting... too much strain would be placed on the diff and there too dame expensive to replace. Just weld it up. As far as set up goes...... everyone has their own opinion what would be best.

[ Edited on 4/1/2006 by bat69 ]
White Knuckle Racing Team [/i]
"Drive it like dirt"

Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#444121
those kreiskuke videos - from memory that is a Type 4 with well over 200bhp on tap.... thus the well wicked induction noise (noice !). for real drifting, big hp is a neccessity.

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·

#444203
Doug Sweetman wrote:those kreiskuke videos - from memory that is a Type 4 with well over 200bhp on tap.... thus the well wicked induction noise (noice !). for real drifting, big hp is a neccessity.
Yep and with that HP comes the problem of heat management. An air cooled vw engine would be lucky to survive 5 laps of a drift track (the way I drive), before it overheats. Considering you'd be having to hold your 1916 or larger engine around the 5000-6500 rpm mark for most of the track in 2nd and 3rd. Plus because of the low road speed your not getting the cooling it really needs.

So to have a reliable drift car I think your going to need a water boxer conversion at least, or something with water cooled heads... Hmmm...

That being said drifting is a lot of fun. You should see the looks you get too when you get a vw sideways and you havn't had to pull on the handbrake to get the rear wheels to lock so you can start the slide, as most drifters drive. I like the power slide between gear shifts!

In the end I think the short answer is yes you can drift in a vw, but not with the reliability needed to be competitive with a nissan or toyota.

A word on suspension... Low as you can go, wide as possible(wheel track), high rear tyre pressures and at least 195 wide, and even consider solid mounting the rear suspension, which means you could just replace your rear shocks with bars that hold a specific camber. Swing axel is fine, and strong too.

humpty Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,336 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#444213
So to have a reliable drift car I think your going to need a water boxer conversion at least, or something with water cooled heads... Hmmm...
Sounds like something someone is building here at AVD's already...

Doesn't it Ian? :P
FUCH your early!

http://www.noh2o.org/

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#444233
iswinkels wrote:Plus because of the low road speed your not getting the cooling it really needs.
I thought the fan speed would be more important than road speed. You would have high RPMs (and therefore high fan speed), and you wouldn't exactly be "sitting in traffic", so I reckon cooling wouldn't be an issue more than it is for any other form of air-cooled racing (hillclimbs, super sprints, whatever).

How long does a drift event last for anyways?

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? Wolfsburg Wizard

591 posts · joined May 2004 ·

#444264
that light bule beatle in the vid was the 2003 euro drift champion
You only need two tools
Wd40 if it don't move and it should
Duct tape if it move's and it shouldn't