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using magna parts for EFI?

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type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 ·

#495999
Hey all,

I have an EFI 2.6l magna which has a perfectly running fuel injection system. How much of this could I use for a low cost EFI conversion into the notchy?
Parts I would think are ok: efi dizzy, transistor coil, fuel pump + relay, AFM incl. atmospheric pressure sensor, throttle body with TPS and IST motor (easy to remove if redundant), fuel pressure regulator,
Not sure about : injectors (size & flow), modify existing plenum.
Would need: EMS (computer), custom harness, fuel rails, temp sender etc etc

Oh, and I want to eventually run a moderate boost turbo with intercooler. :jesus

Ratty63's projects are an inspiration and I am hungry for more information!

Cheers,
Toby :thumb

[ Edited on 3-6-2006 by type3lover ]
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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#496002
Might be better with Camira stuff instead - I paid $80 for EVERYTHING except the fuel tank and pump, and O2 sensor cos the wrecking yard was about to close and I run outta time to get it off...
Pay your debts, CxxT

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 ·

#496022
I know Camira stuff works (just see what Ratty63 has done with it) but I have a perfectly running Magna that I am considering cannibalising for anything useful for the type 3 project and scrap the rest. Oh yeah I forgot to mention the 02 sensor. I take it closed loop is a better system, right?
Cheers, T
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Volkswagenboy Staggers Automotive.

2,437 posts · joined Jul 2005 ·

#496047
I wanna know too! I have a running Magna I wanna use for VW purposes!
-Staggers.
STAGGERS AUTOMOTIVE - Heavy Vehicle Diesel Specialist
JB CUSTOMS & CLASSICS - Car Builders
2/53 Tradelink Drive, Browns Plains

Volkswagenboy Staggers Automotive.

2,437 posts · joined Jul 2005 ·

#498403
BUMP
-Staggers.
STAGGERS AUTOMOTIVE - Heavy Vehicle Diesel Specialist
JB CUSTOMS & CLASSICS - Car Builders
2/53 Tradelink Drive, Browns Plains

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 ·

#501649
Surely someone has done this? The parts are bosch / mitsu and off a magna are dirt cheap as well.
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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#501666
Can't program the Magna's PCM like the Holden/Delco one - so all you will end up using is the injectoirs and possibly, dizzy

Sell the Magma and use the $ for Camira stuff
Pay your debts, CxxT

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 ·

#501928
Righto.
If it's not worth it I'll sell the car complete - it presents well and is in great condition for it's age but who wants to buy a mugna.
Otherwise I had thought about using the following bits if suited:
-injectors
-dizzy
-air flow meter with built in atmospheric pressure sensor
-oxygen sensor
-plenum chamber (use as a base for custom manifold!)
-throttle body
-throttle position sensor and idle-up (IST) motor
-fuel pump
-fuel filter (replacement)
- fuel pressure regulator
-coil

Then just get a programmable ECU and fab up a fuel rail and some manifolds and fanny's your aunty! Wishful thinking!
There's a lot to this sort of project as we all know after reading about Ratty's escapades but if these parts are worthwhile using I'll just harvest them from the fagna. If not maybe someone needs a cheap car!?
Cheers! T :thumb
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ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#501936
He He He - just dropped by the forum to see update my mega-post with more details of the last few weeks sagas and look what I found. Great to hear that there are a few other people looking to do what I have done. Go for it! 😀
type3lover wrote:.... I had thought about using the following bits if suited:
-injectors
-dizzy
-air flow meter with built in atmospheric pressure sensor
-oxygen sensor
-plenum chamber (use as a base for custom manifold!)
-throttle body
-throttle position sensor and idle-up (IST) motor
-fuel pump
-fuel filter (replacement)
- fuel pressure regulator
-coil

Then just get a programmable ECU and fab up a fuel rail and some manifolds and fanny's your aunty! Wishful thinking!
From my experience - injectors should be OK as long as they match the ECU - most EFI cars (except the Kombis and TIII's as I now know), use high resistance injectors. Low resistance injectors are used in Turbo/SUpercharged vehicles where the injector is held open for much longer periods due to the need for extra fuel (under boost).

Dissy, does it fit into a VW case? Is the foot the same as the VW dissys? Is it a fully electronic dissy or is it still a vac or mechanical advance type? If it is a fully electronic dissy and the answer to the first two questions is 'yes' then you should be able to use the Magna Dissy. If it's not fully electronic (ie: the dissy controls the advance and not the ECU) then I would be concerned about the ignition advance being correct for a VW engine - the ignition timing makes a HUGE difference to VW's.

Air Flow Meter - it will depend on the ECU you choose as to whether the AFM will be useable. Some ECU's will work with an AFM and some require a MAP sensor instead. No big deal, MAP sensors are easily available second hand.

Oxygen Sensor - only of use if it is a brand-new 3 or 4 wire sensor. O2 sensors have a finite lifespan and chances are that this one (in the Magna) is beyond its use by date. You need a heated O2 sensor (3 or 4 wire) for a VW due to the need to mount it so far away from the head.

Plenum Chamber - may be of use - depending on your fabrication skills. Have you considered using a stock TIII plenum and manifold?

Throttle Body - Yep, should be of use.

Throttle position sensor - should be part of the throttle body, so yep, should be of use.

Idle-up (IST) motor - will depend on the ECU you choose. The Delco ECU (that I used) only works with GM IAC's (or IST in this case). Best to check with the ECU manufacturer.

-fuel pump - internal or external? Either way it could be used, but it will depend on how much fabrication work you want to do to your fuel tank....

-fuel filter (replacement) - yep - no question

- fuel pressure regulator - yep - no question

-coil - probably, again depending on the ECU.

Hope this helps!

R 🙂
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 ·

#506357
Cheers Ratty!

Injectors: Standard Bosch - flow rate not known.

Distributor: Not the one I'm talking about in another thread. This is the hall effect 2 sensor efi dizzy that once machined to fit should work well with most ecu's.

AFM: I think this provides signals for flow and pressure.

o2 Sensor: Yep, ditch and get a heated one

Plenum: Might go for VW plenum & manifold (large enough for turbo??)

Throttle body: about 48mm at the butterfly

TPS & IST: Would this depend upon input & output resistance / impedance or is it all std?

EFI Fuel Pump: Is internal, however I'd consider using a LP pump from the tank and then putting it into a surge tank ideally.

Fuel filter: I think VL commodore filters are pretty cheap

Pressure regulator: So just plumb it to one of the fuel rails?

Coil: Uses a transistor pack to fire from the ECU signal.

ECU: I wonder if it could be used just for testing purposes to run the engine? Can't see why not if the firing order is correct (just wiring!). I'm thinking fuel delivery could be managed with the correct size injectors in a closed loop system and that the problem would be the pre-programmed timing map only not being ideal...

Would also need to look at coolant (oil) temp sensor, knock sensor (if the new ecu uses it) and most importantly upgrading to an alternator to power all this gear! What have I forgotten ! ;-)

Cheers, T
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ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#506546
Couple of things to consider:

I can't remember what size throat my Camira TB has, but be careful not to go too large as it will effect your vac signal at low throttle (and therefore make low throttle driving ... er ... uncomfortable) - a friend of mine used a TB from an EA Falcon on a 2 litre Type III engine. It had almost no grunt at low revs and required the go pedal to be mashed just to get it to begin to accelerate ..... although part of this may have been due to poor tuning too....

Coolant temp: consider your options here - the coolant temp sensor in a water cooled car is mounted in the back of the head - in this location it is as close as you can get to measuring the head temp. This area of the engine will experience fairly rapid changes in temp both when you first start the car (warm up) and if you should get the spark or fuel incorrect (too much advance or too lean) - on the other hand, the oil temp will take a fair while to respond to any changes in engine operation. Most ECU's use the temp sensor to operate the cold enrichment (like a choke on carb'd cars). If you use the oil temp I believe that you would have to wait a long time before the ECU would 'see' the engine to be at operating temp. I used a 'temp sender II' from an EFI VW (Kombi or Type III) - it screws into the head beside the intake port on some twin port heads. The only issue that I experienced with doing it this way was that the head temp was higher than what the water temp would be in a water cooled engine, causing the ECU to freek-out. Easily sorted with the use of a resistor in the coolant temp wire....

Knock sensor: Probably not worth worrying about. They are usually tuned to individual engines and unless you can change the sensitivity of the knock sensor it will probably cause more problems than it fixes (keep in mind - VW engines are much noisier than a Magna engine... well, most of the time anyway 😀).

Just my thoughts....

R 🙂
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#506560
yes ratty, good advice on the TB - a mate had twin Holden 60mm (VN) TBs on a Holden V8 and wondered why it was so hard to drive; it was because some dickhead told him they must open at the same time - the result being 2mm of throttle movement opened the TBs enough to feed about 300kW... he changed them to staggered opening (one before the other - logically the one with the TPS opens first; like a Walkinshaw Commodore) and it cleaned up the low-speed driveability and still gave him 500 or something horses. A standard Camira/Pulsar TB is about 50mm for 80kW factory so will feed enough air for a hottie 120+hp VW (90kW) easily...



[ Edited on 30-6-2006 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 ·

#524990
Just a brief update...I have procured a type 3 injection manifold and throttle body which is going to be for the first stage of my injection project. After removing the plastic from the fuel inlet end to allow a hose to be clamped on and swapping the pintles (the plastic tips on injectors - is that what they are called?) the magna injectors are fitted to the VW manifold.
The EFI magna dizzy will be machined to fit in the next 2 weeks. It uses 2 hall effect sensors - the second one is for No.1 cylinder TDC which means that this dizzy is ready to use with sequential injection, which is handy to know. There is no advance mechanism in this dizzy either so the timing map will be controlled by the ECU.

As I said, this is only stage one. I intend to use the megasquirt ECU and magna parts to get the car running well and to learn about programming an EFI system. Later on will come dreams of twin turbos, crank triggered ignition and individual coil packs, extra injectors for high boost, intercooling, water/methanol spray etc etc but that's for later.

More to come as things progress, and if anyone is interested I can start a new thread detailing my progress a bit better. It may take a while between updates as I save the $$$ for parts though.
Cheers! Toby :thumb
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ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#525255
type3lover wrote:.... and if anyone is interested I can start a new thread detailing my progress a bit better.....
great idea - I'm very interested to see how this turns out - don't forget to include pics of the work you are doing as this will make it easier for everyone to understand (particularly if they are not 100% knowledgable on the topic of EFI).

Go for it!

R 🙂
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

koolkarmakombi enkarmarising

2,078 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#525262
Do post lots of pics mate, there are quite a few of us lurkers accumulating the bits to do the FI conversion,

any info posted happily read!

same goes for rattus 63, but he knows that 🙂

kkk

type3lover wrote:Just a brief update...I have procured a type 3 injection manifold and throttle body which is going to be for the first stage of my injection project. After removing the plastic from the fuel inlet end to allow a hose to be clamped on and swapping the pintles (the plastic tips on injectors - is that what they are called?) the magna injectors are fitted to the VW manifold.
The EFI magna dizzy will be machined to fit in the next 2 weeks. It uses 2 hall effect sensors - the second one is for No.1 cylinder TDC which means that this dizzy is ready to use with sequential injection, which is handy to know. There is no advance mechanism in this dizzy either so the timing map will be controlled by the ECU.

As I said, this is only stage one. I intend to use the megasquirt ECU and magna parts to get the car running well and to learn about programming an EFI system. Later on will come dreams of twin turbos, crank triggered ignition and individual coil packs, extra injectors for high boost, intercooling, water/methanol spray etc etc but that's for later.

More to come as things progress, and if anyone is interested I can start a new thread detailing my progress a bit better. It may take a while between updates as I save the $$$ for parts though.
Cheers! Toby :thumb
This disclaimer does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either myself, my company, my friends, or my dog: don't quote me on that; don't quote me on anything; this disclaimer is subject to change without notice; text is slightly enlarged to show detail; resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is unintentional and coincidental; dry clean only; do not bend, fold, or mutilate; anchovies or jalapenos added to this disclaimer upon request; your mileage may vary; no substitutions are allowed; for a limited time only while supplies last; offer void where prohibited; this disclaimer is provided "as is" without any warranties expressed or implied

rallydave Learner Dubber

19 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·

#542241
Hi just came across this old stuff. Conti engines on bribie Island in Qld has had magna injection on his race buggy for some time and has 100hp at the wheels with kombi power turning 34in tyres! He also runs magna stuff on his ultra light aircraft vw engines. I've been a mitsu registered tech and a holden registered tech for ages and the gear for the magna is far more reliable.cheers.

rallydave Learner Dubber

19 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·

#542243
ps for all those thinking they can outsmart the delco ecu with resistors,forget it.The delco unit even as far back as 1988 will see the incorrect value range,set a code and SUBSTITUTE a known value from the ROM mapping.If you don't belive me plug in a tech 1 or 2 scan tool.

dusto81 Officially Full-On Dubber

229 posts · joined Feb 2005 ·

#542480
Chuck the whole magna engine in I reckon. I just bought a 74 ute with a magna/sigma engine in it and it runs fantastic with heaps of torque and fits in the engine bay perfectly. There cheap engines too which is great for replacement.
Cheers,
Dustin

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 ·

#542491
Dusto - I had considered just that for a rat project or maybe kombi but didn't get anywhere with it. Still got the whole car in the back yard!

Rallydave - I concur. The magna (bosch) stuff has always been reliable in both cars I've owned. The only prob in 4 years was the fuel pump failing.

I haven't done much with this efi conversion recently hence the fact I haven't posted on this for a while - been focussed on rebuilding my type 4 kombi motor, which is now finished. I hope to get back into it shortly though!!

Cheers, Toby :thumb

[ Edited on 9-10-2006 by type3lover ]
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lunar_c Seriously Crusin Dubber

155 posts · joined Aug 2006 ·

#552471
Don't forget don't all (well the later 1991+ model ones) magna's use an air flow meter? They're a bit of a pain as they have to be just before the air filter and they're a bit bulky so trying to fit it all under the decklid may become a challenge..
Also like others have said if you use a Delco 808 ecu like on the commodores and camira's you get an ECU that you can reprogram reasonably easily with Kalmaker.
It's also a VERY capable ECU .. being used by GM from the factory on everything from aussie camira's to yank 351ci ford trucks.
6 Dubs in and counting..

1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#552480
rallydave wrote:ps for all those thinking they can outsmart the delco ecu with resistors,forget it.The delco unit even as far back as 1988 will see the incorrect value range,set a code and SUBSTITUTE a known value from the ROM mapping.If you don't belive me plug in a tech 1 or 2 scan tool.
If left standard, yes, but not after you've tuned it to suit the VW with Kalmaker software

[ Edited on 6-11-2006 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 ·

#552884
Or you can just build a megasquirt II kit with built in map sensor and forget the AFM!

Here's a sneak peek of where I'm at with this...

(The generator is not staying!)

Cheers, Toby :thumb

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