surge tank idea...comments please

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 · 21 Aug 2006, 5:37 pm

#525001

Hey again all,

These questions relate to whether I have to plumb thicker fuel lines through the tunnel to feed an injection conversion on an early notch.

What if I mounted a largish, say 8 litre surge tank at the rear of the car (behind the back seat) and used the stock mechanical fuel pump to feed it? Would the standard pump and fuel lines be able to keep up with the surge tank's fuel demand on a (one day) high boost turbo 1776?
Then I would use the VL turbo fuel pump and the magna regulator for the high pressure circuit and plumb excess fuel from the regulator back to the surge tank? I do not know the flow rate of the stock VW pump but it seems to be able to feed a potent 1916cc engine just fine...

I have read other posts on the subject of surge tanks and the way to go seems to be to use a low pressure pump to feed a high pressure pump inside of or external to the surge tank to the fuel rails and then through the fuel pressure regulator and back to the surge tank or fuel tank. I am not sure whether the low pressure side needs a fuel return or not at least to help purge air from the system...maybe it depends on the type of pump used?

Maybe a race car would need the fuel returned to the main fuel tank to aid in cooling it but I don't plan to race it...rather enjoy it as a daily driver.

Anyhow I am trying to avoid having to install 2 thicker fuel lines down the tunnel of my notch but part of me says it just has to be done...I am no engineer but it makes sense that the fuel lines should all be the same diameter for low and high pressure sides of the system.

C'mon guys...tell me how it is....... 🤓

.

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 · 22 Aug 2006, 9:02 am

#525261

The way you suggest to plumb your surge tank is almost exactly the way the I have done it on my Brothers Baja - and it works perfectly. I don't think that you need to have the surge tank as big as 8 litres though, as this could potnetially suffer from surging due to its size....

My system (as fitted to my brothers Baja) is as follows:

Fuel is drawn from the fuel tank in the front of the car, through the stock fuel line (in the tunnel), by a low pressure fuel pump. This fuel is then deposited into the surge tank (about 2 litres in size - which is waaay bigger than we need). Any air or excess fuel is returned from the top of the surge tank to the main tank via another small diameter fuel line.

The high pressure pump draws fuel from the bottom of the surge tank, pumps the fuel through a fuel filter then through the fuel rail to the pressure regulator. The unused fuel is returned from the pressure regulator to the surge tank.

You will definatly need a return line from the surge tank to the main tank, otherwise any air that makes its way into the surge tank will remain trapped in the surge tank and will gradually build up.

The required size of a surge tank depends on who you talk to. I have been quoted sizes from about 600ml to 1.5 litres (for a NA engine) and twice those figures for a Turbo/Supercharged set-up. I suppose the size required will depend on what you plan on doing with the car (ie: off roaders (like my Brothers Baja) who will spend time on steeper angles than road cars will need a larger volume surge tank)

Did that make sense?

R 🙂

40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 · 22 Aug 2006, 9:33 am

#525271

...just thought of something - is the Magna EFI fuel pump an internal or external (mounting) pump? This would have an effect on the size of your surge tank....

R 🙂

40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 22 Aug 2006, 9:44 am

#525280

there's a whole post discussing surge tanks. Do a search and you'll find it easily enough.

for my 2c worth, mine is set up like ratty said. yes you definitely need a return line, otherwise the temp of the fuel can only rise too. a little bit of bleed back into the fuel tank allows fresh cool fuel into the system.

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=9938

...here it is at the top of the tech mods and FAQ forum.

[ Edited on 21-8-06 by pete wood ]

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 22 Aug 2006, 3:24 pm

#525374

You can increase the volume of fuel the stock pump pumps, by making the bakelite base thinner...
the stroke gets longer...
more fuel....

the rest is way out of My league...

cheers

Lee

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 22 Aug 2006, 4:02 pm

#525388

FORGET a stock fuel pump anywhere in your fuel system. It'll feed about 60hp + 50%. Maybe

[ Edited on 22-8-2006 by VWCOOL ]

Pay your debts, CxxT

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 22 Aug 2006, 5:31 pm

#525422

68AutoBug wrote:You can increase the volume of fuel the stock pump pumps, by making the bakelite base thinner...
the stroke gets longer...
more fuel....

good idea Lee, but VW fuel pumps are not that bullet proof to begin with and the diaphrams often fail as it is.

I'd go a facet low pressure pump as your supply pump. they are pretty cheap and you could probably pick one 2nd hand from a wrecker. It's worked well for me. :thumb

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 · 23 Aug 2006, 12:10 pm

#525770

pete wood wrote:I'd go a facet low pressure pump as your supply pump. they are pretty cheap and you could probably pick one 2nd hand from a wrecker. It's worked well for me. :thumb

This is the same pump we use on my Brothers Baja (from main tank to surge tank) - works fine. I picked up a small rotary style pump from a swap - looks like a much smaller version of the high pressure external pumps - it appears to work well too, plus it is very quiet.

R 🙂

40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 · 23 Aug 2006, 5:46 pm

#525861

Guys I am stoked with all the productive replies made so far here...thankyou!
Here is my next proposal:

Fuel leaves tank via std fuel line through a normal LP fuel filter and is pumped by a LP facet or rotary electric pump mounted near but below the fuel tank, and enters surge tank mounted at rear of vehicle. There is also a return from the top of the surge tank back to the main fuel tank which is plumbed to the top of the fuel tank in the same ID as the supply line..

On the HP side there is a EFI fuel filter fitted before the HP fuel pump . The fuel rails are connected directly to the output of the HP pump. After the last fuel rail there is a magna fuel pressure regulator (Has inbuilt vacuum reference and external solenoid to allow full fuel pressure for hot starting I think). The outlet from the reg goes back to the surge tank. This reg will only be temporary just to get the system functional.

The surge tank will be no more than 2 litres in capacity and will be taller than it is wide to reduce surge under hard cornering etc. It will need 2 smaller sized outlets and 2 larger (EFI) sized outlets.

All the LP pipes are standard non-efi size, and the HP pipes are 8mm.

How does this sound?

Cheers, Toby 👍

.

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 · 23 Aug 2006, 6:04 pm

#525867

Just another thought...it might be better to fit the HP pump from the magna inside the surge tank (it's an internal unit anyway). It would be neater and less complex that way I imagine.
Fuel pressure according to the magna book is rated at 245-264kpa unregulated and 196kpa regulated. That's max 38.2psi and regulated 28.4psi - similar to the VW system which should be regulated to 28psi but is adjusted manually.
This leads to another problem with turbo boost...if I was to run 20psi boost then I would need the fuel pressure to match the boost pressure comparatively wouldn't I? Or is that just for carby systems?
Lots to learn and it's great fun too. And who doesn't want smooth idle and driveability when cold as well as precise fuel delivery throughout the entire rev range? Show me a carby setup that does that...

.

speedster356 Plastic not Classic Racing

1,624 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 23 Aug 2006, 6:11 pm

#525870

You use a boost sensitive fuel pressure regulator.

Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH

Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH

Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm

Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 · 23 Aug 2006, 6:17 pm

#525874

touche!

.

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 · 25 Aug 2006, 10:45 am

#526523

Sounds like you have the basic idea - however there are a few more things you should consider:

type3lover wrote:... There is also a return from the top of the surge tank back to the main fuel tank which is plumbed to the top of the fuel tank in the same ID as the supply line..

Whilst most of this paragraph is perfectly OK, you may want to run the return into the bottom of the tank (yeah, I know, this makes installing the fittings for the return to the main tank just that much more difficult). The reason I say this is that the returned fuel will (in theory) be warm/hot. The temperature that fuel vaporises is fairly low, so by returning the fuel into the top of the tank, you risk some of the fuel vaporising before it hits the colder fuel in the main tank, making you fuel system 'fumey' and also potentially noisy when the tank is almost empty (the noise of fuel splashing into the bottom of the tank). All production EFI systems and most shop-installed systems return the fuel from the surge tank into the bottom of the main tank...

type3lover wrote:On the HP side there is a EFI fuel filter fitted before the HP fuel pump .

HP EFI pumps WILL NOT suck fuel (they just burn out instead). The HP filter (looks like a large steel can) must be fitted after the pump. If you are concerned about sucking debris from the surge tank into the EFI pump (keeping in mind that the fuel entering the surge tank has already passed through a filter on the low pressure side), then you could fit a filter screen, which will keep the big chunks out - this is what the factory EFI cars use - the filter screen looks like a wire mesh strainer. We decided that the filter on the low pressure side of the fuel system was enough, and did not fit a filter screen into my Brothers EFI system. So far no problems.

Just on the subject of EFI pumps not being able to suck, if you do end up using an external HP EFI pump, make certain that it is mounted below the height of the take off point on the bottom of the surge tank.

type3lover wrote:How does this sound?

Other than the points above, sounds great to me!

Using the internal EFI pump from the Magna would also work the same way, but your surge tank would need to be bigger to accomodate the pump as well as a quantity to fuel - do you have the space to mount a bigger surge tank? If so, that would be worth a go for sure!

R 🙂

40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

Kombicol Officially Full-On Dubber

211 posts · joined Sep 2003 · 25 Aug 2006, 11:02 am

#526529

I am also considering fitting an EFI system to my girlfriends square type 3. I have a near complete original system which I may fit, but I am also consideringa hybrid system like yourself and Ratty are building.
One thing I have been wondering about is where to run the return line. In the factory EFI cars, they have 2 pipes through the tunnel - 1 supply, 1 return - It would be easy enough to fit a second line to a car with the body off the pan, but I have not intentions of doing that. What did you do Rosco? Attach it to the bottom?

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 · 25 Aug 2006, 11:29 am

#526535

My return line has been run down the inside edge of the passenger side of the tunnel (inside the car) - it is clamped into place so that there is absolutly no movement. I have also seen return lines down the outside of the pan - the reason that we decided to run the line inside is that we use the Baja for serious Off-Roading and a fuel line mounted on the underneath of the car would easily become damaged - this would not necessarily be a problem with a 'road-only' car.

I am not certain about the legalities of running a fuel line through the cabin - I suspect that some people would consider that to be dangerous and illegal, but we couldn't find anything written anywhere to agree with this (if someone can clarify this I would be greatful).

Idealy, the line should go down the centre of the tunnel and regardless of where you fit it, it should be mounted solidly so than it cannot rub against anything.

R 🙂

40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 25 Aug 2006, 11:50 am

#526542

"Fuel leaves tank via std fuel line through a normal LP fuel filter "

If you have any small lines anywhere on the supply side, you will kill your engine, even with a surge tank. Constant WOT will empty it quick. Boom.

All fuel system lines should be external to the cabin of the car

[ Edited on 25-8-2006 by VWCOOL ]

Pay your debts, CxxT

Kombicol Officially Full-On Dubber

211 posts · joined Sep 2003 · 25 Aug 2006, 1:02 pm

#526566

Both the kombi and type 3 factory EFI tanks have a small line on the suction side of the pump comming out of the tank (~5/16), before going to one of those fuel filters with a 5/16 inlet and 1/2 inch outlet which goes to the HP pump.

The length of the 5/16 hose is not long ~200mm, and doesn't seem to hurt anything. I also have the factory EFI tank in my suby powered kombi, and doent have any starvation issues.

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 · 26 Aug 2006, 10:52 am

#526845

VWCOOL wrote:...If you have any small lines anywhere on the supply side, you will kill your engine, even with a surge tank. Constant WOT will empty it quick. Boom....

If you have the returned fuel from your fuel rail (via pressure reg) going back into your surge tank, and the low pressure pump that you are using to pump the fuel from the main tank to the surge tank would be able to supply a carbied engine then using the stock (small lines) won't be a problem.

We have done it this way with my Brothers car for over 12 months now (with a 2.1 Type IV engine) and have never had the surge tank become empty, even on steep slopes at WOT (like when climbing sand dunes or up long muddy hills).

However, if the low pressure pump cannot supply fuel to the surge tank at the same rate as the engine is using the fuel then yes, the surge tank will empty and you risk doing damage to your engine and high pressure fuel pump.

R 🙂

40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

type3lover in the garage...

796 posts · joined Feb 2005 · 28 Aug 2006, 6:28 pm

#527580

Thanks for the valuable input!

OK, here's something I hadn't thought of until now...
What if I just cut open the fuel tank and welded some baffling around the fuel outlet? It would not take much to set up and would remove the problem of the LP pump not "keeping up" with the flow of the HP pump. I could then just run the HP pump up front (down low on the front beam) and keep it simple. The important thing would be to keep the "spirited" driving for when there is more than 1/4 tank or so to be 100% safe.

Thanks also Ratty for pointing out that the filter goes AFTER the HP fuel pump. I think a screen similar to other OEM intank applications would be a definite benefit though without cuasing any restriction to the gravity fed fuel supply.

As far as running the new thicker fuel lines I think that through the tunnel although tricky would be the best idea. Under the car would be easiest bu leave the lines prone to stone damage not to mention if in an accident they are exposed to underside damage. I just didn't want to do that as there is not much room especially for an amateur like me to engineer it!
Cheers,
T 👍

[ Edited on 28-8-2006 by type3lover ]

.

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 29 Aug 2006, 8:28 am

#527780

ratty 63 wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:...If you have any small lines anywhere on the supply side, you will kill your engine, even with a surge tank. Constant WOT will empty it quick. Boom....
If you have the returned fuel from your fuel rail (via pressure reg) going back into your surge tank, and the low pressure pump that you are using to pump the fuel from the main tank to the surge tank would be able to supply a carbied engine then using the stock (small lines) won't be a problem.

We have done it this way with my Brothers car for over 12 months now (with a 2.1 Type IV engine) and have never had the surge tank become empty, even on steep slopes at WOT (like when climbing sand dunes or up long muddy hills).

However, if the low pressure pump cannot supply fuel to the surge tank at the same rate as the engine is using the fuel then yes, the surge tank will empty and you risk doing damage to your engine and high pressure fuel pump.

R 🙂

Are we talking about a lazy 2.1 with maybe 70hp or a 'high boost 1776' with (say) double that?

I learned the hard way to allways over-engineer fuel system supply...

Type 3 lover - simply use a surge tank. make sure you have 8mm lines EVERYWHERE in your fuel system supply side, inlcuding the original fuel tank outlet

[ Edited on 28-8-2006 by VWCOOL ]

Pay your debts, CxxT

MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? Wolfsburg Wizard

591 posts · joined May 2004 · 3 Sep 2006, 6:41 pm

#529822

A lazy 2.1 with 70hp they had more than that standard and it anit standard in specs and it has been driven at wot for last well since it has been put together and it has to turn 33inch treads. my last baja with a twin webbered type4 would sit on 5500 6000 all day and it never ran out of fuel even when i was racing a mate on the way to fraser flat out along the high way at about 160kph and if a twin webbered one didnt run out of fuel a more fuel efficient efi engine wouldnt maybe if it was a turboed crazy engine, but i doubt there would be to many na vw engines that could use more than the standard pipe could suppliy

You only need two tools
Wd40 if it don't move and it should
Duct tape if it move's and it shouldn't

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 3 Sep 2006, 7:30 pm

#529848

MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? wrote:A lazy 2.1 with 70hp they had more than that standard and it anit standard in specs and it has been driven at wot for last well since it has been put together and it has to turn 33inch treads. my last baja with a twin webbered type4 would sit on 5500 6000 all day and it never ran out of fuel even when i was racing a mate on the way to fraser flat out along the high way at about 160kph and if a twin webbered one didnt run out of fuel a more fuel efficient efi engine wouldnt maybe if it was a turboed crazy engine, but i doubt there would be to many na vw engines that could use more than the standard pipe could suppliy

My mistake - flat out, the VW 2.1 had 70kW. That's about 93hp. I seriously doubt your car could hold max power revs 'all day' using a standard fuel line. Maybe for a coupla minutes, until your float bowls ran dry... And if you wanna risk it, good for you. But for the sake of $30 worth of 8mm fuel line, I wouldn't!

[ Edited on 3-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]

Pay your debts, CxxT