Help needed.. V6 in to a T3 IRS Kitcar.

SirDelton Seriously Crusin Dubber

124 posts · joined Jun 2006 · 13 Sep 2006, 1:03 pm

#533730

Good Morning All...

I have a couple of Engine mod Questions that I'm hoping you guys can help me out with..

I'm thinking of installing a V6 Twin Turbo 2ltr into my Type3 IRS based Kitcar. This car has been Rego'ed in QLD with a EA71 Subura engine once before, but currently is not.

Q1- What kind of issue will I face trying to get this car through QLD Rego requirements?

I'm already going to install a "SHERMAN" front & rear disc brake kit.

Q2- The V6 is going to need to be moved back around 75mm (3inch). This is going to move the position of the drive shafts on the 091 gearbox. Will this effect the rear IRS?

Q3- With the gearbox moved back I'm guessing I'm going to need longer drive shafts. Who is the best person in Brisbane (Or anywhere) to get modified high performance drive shafts off?

I still maybe able to move the radiator towards the rear of the car to allow the Kombie box to sit in the same position as the STD box that is in it now but it will be extremely tight with no real room between the rear body shell & Radiator. Which I think maybe an issue in itself..

I really do want to put this engine into the car & I know the Subura would be alot easier but how cool would a V6 be.. ?

Thanks for any help you maybe able to offer..

Cheers
SD

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 13 Sep 2006, 2:03 pm

#533739

Q1 - you need to start talking to an approval engineering before you start working on your project, and do what ever they want you to do.

Are you talking about the nissan VG20-ET engine, or the 6A12G twin turbo?

the VG20 is quite old and makes less power than my NA V6. The 6A12G is a good motor but I am pretty sure it is cast iron block and weighs a crap-load.

Q2 - I definitely would NOT go moving it back if you want the car to go around corners. Moving it back and having a heavy engine will really screw up the handling.

What kit car is it in anyway?

Custom Offroad should be able to help out with the axles.

Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

gull Wolfsburg Wizard

446 posts · joined Jun 2005 · 13 Sep 2006, 2:11 pm

#533743

SirDelton wrote:Good Morning All...

I have a couple of Engine mod Questions that I'm hoping you guys can help me out with..

I'm thinking of installing a V6 Twin Turbo 2ltr into my Type3 IRS based Kitcar. This car has been Rego'ed in QLD with a EA71 Subura engine once before, but currently is not.

I dont think you will be able to do this as the total CC limet is LARGE

Q1- What kind of issue will I face trying to get this car through QLD Rego requirements?

?? give Brad a call or WES will tell you

I'm already going to install a "SHERMAN" front & rear disc brake kit.

Good

Q2- The V6 is going to need to be moved back around 75mm (3inch). This is going to move the position of the drive shafts on the 091 gearbox. Will this effect the rear IRS?

back to the rear ?
move to the front of the car

Q3- With the gearbox moved back I'm guessing I'm going to need longer drive shafts. Who is the best person in Brisbane (Or anywhere) to get modified high performance drive shafts off?

I dont know any one thats snaped a drive shaft on a road vw to date .Mind you VW dont put out the power
may be with a subaru turbo or rota

I still maybe able to move the radiator towards the rear of the car to allow the Kombie box to sit in the same position as the STD box that is in it now but it will be extremely tight with no real room between the rear body shell & Radiator. Which I think maybe an issue in itself..

I really do want to put this engine into the car & I know the Subura would be alot easier but how cool would a V6 be.. ?

It would not be cool & its best keeped to a off road buggy

Thanks for any help you maybe able to offer..

I have a RS turbo motor & loom in stock , see the for sale section .
I also have a 1800 gear box , so the kit you have payed for here will fitt

seagull
Cheers
SD

gull Wolfsburg Wizard

446 posts · joined Jun 2005 · 13 Sep 2006, 2:29 pm

#533751

see WEs was there fast !

Wes is correct that the motor is less power full than his .There is allso less parts about .

The Subaru parts can be found all over he place & there is many after market bits about .

Dont wast your time with the V6

SirDelton Seriously Crusin Dubber

124 posts · joined Jun 2006 · 13 Sep 2006, 2:39 pm

#533755

gull wrote:see WEs was there fast !

Wes is correct that the motor is less power full than his .There is allso less parts about .

The Subaru parts can be found all over he place & there is many after market bits about .

Dont wast your time with the V6

I just think the V6 would be a better talking piece then a WRX engine. The quoted power figures of the the 2 engines is very similar.

6AG12TT
179Kw @ 6000
309Nm @ 3500

EJ20T
164Kw @ 6400
270Nm @ 4000

But I do agree the cost of spares & Mod parts maybe harder to find for the V6. The mod would be alot easier with the Subura also.

But the idea of a V6 has alot of apeal to me & the cost of the complete Engine with complete harness & ECU, 091 Gearbox & adapter plate make it a viable project.

I'll have to measure the available space in the engine bay tonight to see if it is possible without any major gearbox movement.

[ Edited on 13-9-2006 by SirDelton ]

71superbug The Itch Itcher

1,184 posts · joined May 2004 · 13 Sep 2006, 2:49 pm

#533761

it all depends which v6 he is talking about neil.

as stated the 6a12 twin turbo has bundles of torque .etc and would eliminate a subie in the right vehicle.

Subarus are good..BUT THEY ARENT THE BE ALL AND END ALL.

i say, get exact measuremetns of engine .etc or even the model engine that it is and post it up and im sure you would get a host of helpful responses.

if you want a lightweight powerful engine....13bturbo...no competition.

if you want an unfortunately more 'common' conversion go the subie (any model)

if you want the cool factor...stick to v6...but maybe single turbo due to cc/weight factor..

Anthony

SirDelton Seriously Crusin Dubber

124 posts · joined Jun 2006 · 13 Sep 2006, 3:02 pm

#533763

Baja Wes wrote:What kit car is it in anyway?

It is a Paragon SP1
Made by Swanston & Pariss Industries @ Carina, QLD

This is the ONLY one of it's kind so I would like to have that wow factor when it's finished.

Not after a Race Car but i do want it to be capable.

malcolm Insano Dub Head

812 posts · joined Nov 2004 · 13 Sep 2006, 3:28 pm

#533770

talk to a engineer that is approved with the road authorities in your state before you buy or start anything.adrs are changing in each state .

gull Wolfsburg Wizard

446 posts · joined Jun 2005 · 13 Sep 2006, 3:37 pm

#533776

Keeping in mind you have a Seagull adapter plate & fly wheel in stock

Take your own path

what ever is said on here some one allways tells you some thing else any way

I gave up long ago

I have a 13B turbo

6 wrx motors

VG30 T

V8 toyota

SR20 n/a

RS turbo

& a new STI wrx in the drive way

gull Wolfsburg Wizard

446 posts · joined Jun 2005 · 13 Sep 2006, 3:46 pm

#533779

From the above selection of motors out there is amazing .

get what you can that fits the price & get to it

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 13 Sep 2006, 7:44 pm

#533842

like I said first up, the 6AG12TT is a cast iron block. It is very heavy.

I wouldn't use it because of the weight. I definitely wouldn't use it if you need to move the engine back even further.

Most engineers won't approve it for the above reasons. They shouldn't approve anything that really messes up the weight distribution.

Custom offroad can point you towards a good engineer.

Do you know what model type 3 pan it was, and what the original vehicle weight was for that model?

Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

malcolm Insano Dub Head

812 posts · joined Nov 2004 · 13 Sep 2006, 9:18 pm

#533883

the subie and the 13Bturbo would work well and you mighten need the orignalecu looks like Motec is emission conpliant.

SirDelton Seriously Crusin Dubber

124 posts · joined Jun 2006 · 13 Sep 2006, 9:36 pm

#533895

Baja Wes wrote:like I said first up, the 6AG12TT is a cast iron block. It is very heavy.

I wouldn't use it because of the weight. I definitely wouldn't use it if you need to move the engine back even further.

Most engineers won't approve it for the above reasons. They shouldn't approve anything that really messes up the weight distribution.

Custom offroad can point you towards a good engineer.

Do you know what model type 3 pan it was, and what the original vehicle weight was for that model?

Sorry Wes.. My bad..

I was thinking the engine would have to be moved towards the front of the car.. But after getting the car up on the ramps today i think I will be able to remount the radiator to allow the gearbox to remain in the correct location.

I can't see why this engine wouldn't be allowed as by the chart even if the car weight is 800Kg's I'm allowed to go bigger then a 2lt (Which is what this engine is.)

As for the pan well I don't have a clue.. In fact my Dad has just told me it isn't a IRS? I'm very confused with all this VW stuff.. :lol I thought anything that a single wheel could move up & down with out effecting the other side was IRS..

Thanks guys for the help so far.. I will be contacting an engineer tomorrow to ask questions..

Anything I need to look out for in a 2nd hand V6 engine?

Cheers
Darren..

SirDelton Seriously Crusin Dubber

124 posts · joined Jun 2006 · 13 Sep 2006, 9:38 pm

#533897

malcolm wrote:the subie and the 13Bturbo would work well and you mighten need the orignalecu looks like Motec is emission conpliant.

Sorry Malcolm.. A rotory will never see the inside of a car I own...

I know they are rockets but they sound like crap.. :vader

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 13 Sep 2006, 9:48 pm

#533904

engine size wise you are fine legally. a 2L turbo V6 or 4cyl are the same size and therefore the same rules.

There is clauses in the rules regarding weight of the engine though.

The swingaxle VW suspension is independant, but it is crap compared to the later 4 joint trailing arm design which is referred to as IRS more commonly.

Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

SirDelton Seriously Crusin Dubber

124 posts · joined Jun 2006 · 13 Sep 2006, 9:52 pm

#533907

Baja Wes wrote:engine size wise you are fine legally. a 2L turbo V6 or 4cyl are the same size and therefore the same rules.

There is clauses in the rules regarding weight of the engine though.

The swingaxle VW suspension is independant, but it is crap compared to the later 4 joint trailing arm design which is referred to as IRS more commonly.

Thanks Wes..

I guess the next question is where can i find out what the weight of 6AG12TT is?

What is the weight of the EJ20T also?

Cheers
SD

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 13 Sep 2006, 10:05 pm

#533917

Here's the extract from the QLD code of practice for light vehicle modification;

Vehicles with engines of greater capacity than that provided in Schedule B will not
be acceptable for registration as a modified production vehicle In addition, even
within the limits specified, it remains the responsibility of the Authorised Officer to
ensure that the engine is suitable for the vehicle An engine may not be a suitable
replacement even though its capacity falls within the specified limits, for example its
mass may be excessive

So it is up to the engineer to decide what is reasonable.

The QLD rules will probably be current until late next year (see the national code of practice post for more info on that.

Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 13 Sep 2006, 10:17 pm

#533924

this paper gives the EJ20T weight as 147kg.
http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/files/SAE_boxer.pdf

The only thing is I don't know what accessories that included.

My 2.5L V6 with absolutely everything bolted to it (intake, cast iron headers, exhaust back to the cat, flywheel, AC compressor, etc) weighed 176kg. It is on the heavy side of what you'd want to use, and it is all alloy.

Don't know about the 6A12G. here's an old post where another guy was gunna use that engine;
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?tid=52662

Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

malcolm Insano Dub Head

812 posts · joined Nov 2004 · 14 Sep 2006, 12:59 am

#533979

type in engine weights into google you,ll get a lot of aircraft sites and they list weights on just about every engine even some gearboxes.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 14 Sep 2006, 5:55 pm

#534198

all the engine weight lists on the internet are old and only really useful if you want to use an engine from the 70's.

You won't find many hi-po jap engines listed in them.

They also don't tell you what state of completeness the engine was weighed in. My V6 would be very light with all the stuff taken off. The flywheel alone was 10kg.

Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

SirDelton Seriously Crusin Dubber

124 posts · joined Jun 2006 · 14 Sep 2006, 8:16 pm

#534245

I phoned Brad @ COR's today & from the chat I had with him it is possible.

Is the 6AG12TT a cast Iron block? I have been trying to get hold of the guy who owns the engine today to find out, without any luck.

Anyway from what Brad said if the unit is in the 180 to 200 Kg range it would be hard for it to be past. The only advice he had was to take a set of bath scales along and set them up with a long length of wood. One end on the scales & one end on a block set up the same level as the scales. Place the engine @ the halfway mark & double the recorded weight..

One thing I didn't ask was does this weight include the gearbox, adapter plate, clutch etc etc? I'm guessing not as he was quoting 147Kg as the weight of a Subura donk..

So does anybody know what a gearbox weights? just incase they are connected?

Thanks again guys.... Guess who will not sleep tonight..

I hope to collect it tomorrow if I can get an extra set of hands to help me lift it onto a trailer..

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 14 Sep 2006, 9:02 pm

#534260

I weighed my engine with a load cell.

I also weighed a 1600/1700 Type 2 VW Bus transaxle which came to 38kg.

If you do move the gearbox forward that will help your weight distribution.

Be careful with the bathroom scales. We tried that with my V6, but couldn't put the weight onto the scales gently enough, and they collapse sideways. They aren't made to weigh engines :P

[ Edited on 14-9-2006 by Baja Wes ]

Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

SirDelton Seriously Crusin Dubber

124 posts · joined Jun 2006 · 15 Sep 2006, 6:44 pm

#534526

Well this project has been canned..
After going & looking at the engine the measurements were different to ones quoted & it is just too big..

Looks like I'm back to a EJ20T or TT engine.

Thanks again guys for all the feed back..