Dudes,
In the medium term i'm going to be IRS-ing my split (Indian kit) and also converting the front to disk brakes, possible from here:
http://www.volksconversions.com.au/discbrakes.htm
Still not decided to keep wide 5 pattern (options are expensive) or go narrow 5 and have good parts availability.
Anyway I'm wondering about the legality of it all... I'm in WA and have a mate who's completely restoring a '59 bus and who's swallowed the rule books... he's freaking me out, it seems like everything i want to do is illegal according to him!
????
Find a local engineer, and go through all the modifications you want to do. I am not familiar with the laws in WA, but in Vic its a whole lot asier to consult the engineer at the beginning and see how you should go about it from the start, than finding out what you should have done at the end!
Both the Indian Kit and Shermans brakes would have been engineered before I am sure.
Shermans kit will pump the offset out too though, so may want to look into narrowing the front depending how low you want to run it..
I'm looking for a 'bolt-on' solution really... whatever the easiste option is. I'd prefer to keep my standard wheels but understand that early bay parts are like rocking horse shit, and then this also means i'm restricted with what i do at the front because i have to find early bay bits there as well.
I'm told i could use late bay rear drums and front disks and get the narrow 5 pattern, which appeals because spares will be over the counter and the donor parts should be easy to find... those wheels will look crap on the van though!
thoughts?
by the way, i'm keeping standard ride height (as close as) and also dont want a narrowed beam... if i can keep my old bits and return back to stock then all the better for it 😉
Sherman kits will widen the front track by 25mm on BOTH sides. Kimm @ Indian has T3 rotors and calipers on his limo with an adapter for wide 5, but he's not selling the kit commercially. Still, if you know a good machine shop, it's not rocket science. I assume you're using an early bay balljoint beam?
Talk to Kimm about the IRS kit. He should be able to give you the specs your engineer wants. 100s of them have been engineered now in NSW (nazi state) so you shouldn't have an issue in WA.
As for your mate...rule book smule book. If an engineer is willing to put their name to it, any mod is legal. That's basically what it comes down to.
Samblers wrote:easy to find... those wheels will look crap on the van though!
thoughts?
Thoughts?... bullshit!
😂
late bay rims look fine on a splitty... Winerot has them on his wifes late split, powdercoated white with early hubcaps, and they look great!
👍
Cheers!
1976 Kombi Trakka camper, "Buttercup"... driver.
1976 Beluxe Microbus, "Saphir"... resto.
1974 Kombi panelvan, "George"... shed.
1974 Superbug, "Schmeetle"... resto.
[img]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b366/cno, bay rims look like shite!!!
they look like commodore rims when powdercoated!!
there is no "bolt on" legal option
legal means doing things right to the letter of the law
there is penty of options that you can go with, and 99.99% of people would never know its been changed.
Its totally up to you to decide... but to be legal, find out what an engineer needs
if you do fit a 68/69 front end you will need to fit adjusters to lower the bus back down to around stock height.
in my opinion if you are wanting to keep the bus around stock height you would be better off getting a set of csp wide 5 front discs keeping the standard beam and a set of wide 5 rear drums new from creative engineering.. after fitting the irs the new repro drums with wide 5 can be fitted.. i think bay rims are ok on a split but to me its almost like painting a bay with the big v on the front just doesnt quite work...
the best rims imo are from the wide 5 catalog .
the best thing to do is make sure you want what you spend the money on before spending anything as its not cheap to change it later ,,irs is the best option for the rear if you want to cruize on the freeway with a higher speed but if you are happy to go slow leave the redux boxes in there
cheers darren
[ Edited on 29-12-2006 by t2 ]
gravity wont get you high
t2 wrote:if you do fit a 68/69 front end you will need to fit adjusters to lower the bus back down to around stock height....
...,,irs is the best option for the rear if you want to cruize on the freeway with a higher speed.....
xornge666x wrote:...and 99.99% of people would never know its been changed...
agree, looks factory and it is factory.... mine is all late under the shell, stops on a dime and handles extremely well..dont go for anything less then irs..
68 beam with adjusters on the front bolts on, just need to sort the clutch cable around the brake booster...
This is helpful guys... though we're getting a bit technical! I've heard NSW has tough rules but from what I'm told WA is now stricter 🙁
I've done nothing to the bus so far, its stock... just trying to understand the implications of what to do and how to get parts 😉
Maybe i can live with the narrow 5 if it gives me more options and easy parts buying... has anyone done this and do you know whats involved? Kimm at Indian was giving me some hints but there's so many options it gets pretty confusing!
Whats the implications of a ball joint vs. king pin front beam? not really sure what the difference is?
Regarding legality, I'm probably not going to see an engineer, but if i can use 'original' vw parts then i will because it'll be designed for kombi and difficult to detect/dispute.
[ Edited on 30/12/2006 by Samblers ]
easy, KL is harder to work on, wears out faster, needs to be greased all the time, can't be adjusted nearly as much, is old old old tech. That said, if you want to scrape the ground, it will go down further.
BJ is more reliable, sealed joints, less free play for longer, a better design. That's why VW went with it.
Look if you want original, don't change anything, but if you want safe and precise, go balljoint, IRS and front disc. There are a bunch of wheels to choose from in bay bolt pattern and you can narrow beams slightly for better offset too. But you can also make wide 5 work too.
... and whats my chances of finding a balljoint front beam?!
If i do go balljoint, do i still have the choice of wide or narrow five, or am i stuck with one front brake option?
If you get a 68/69 front end complete, they are ball joint with wide 5 drum brakes. If you are running a stock engine these are ample to pull the bus up.
If you cant, you can buy the side plates used for the narrow beams with the early bolt up pattern, and therefore fit a later balljoint beam to the early bus.
Does the Indian kit not give you beetle rear brakes, and therefore wide 5 not 2L bus pattern???
The indian kit uses early bay bus hubs stubs and spring plates. You can then use some late bus parts for narrow 5 stud pattern.
Samblers wrote:This is helpful guys... though we're getting a bit technical! I've heard NSW has tough rules but from what I'm told WA is now stricter 🙁
I've done nothing to the bus so far, its stock... just trying to understand the implications of what to do and how to get parts 😉
Maybe i can live with the narrow 5 if it gives me more options and easy parts buying... has anyone done this and do you know whats involved? Kimm at Indian was giving me some hints but there's so many options it gets pretty confusing!
Whats the implications of a ball joint vs. king pin front beam? not really sure what the difference is?
Regarding legality, I'm probably not going to see an engineer, but if i can use 'original' vw parts then i will because it'll be designed for kombi and difficult to detect/dispute.
[ Edited on 30/12/2006 by Samblers ]
FOR WHAT YOU ARE PLANNING YOU MUST SEE AN ENGINEER. NO IFS NO BUTS.
Pay your debts, CxxT
im with warb, jump on dsk and ask some q's!! two of the largest aussie IRS specialists are members there.
Samblers wrote:... and whats my chances of finding a balljoint front beam?!
If i do go balljoint, do i still have the choice of wide or narrow five, or am i stuck with one front brake option?
just keep looking for a BJ beam. wreckers by and large have no idea what they are, so you can get a real bargain if you try. The other option is to have one scratch built by a fabricator. just borrow one and get him to copy it.
As I said above, Kimm has a BJ beam under his Limo. It has T3 rotors and calipers with a legal adapter plate for wide five. The T3 stuff has much less offset, so getting an adaptor plate on and keeping the track standard is much easier.
Don't give up, just get a good engineer and keep thinking outside of the box and asking questions.
Thanks again for all this help guys... I'm pretty much decided on the Indian kit, and Kimm has been really useful but I'm starting my learning from scratch so bear with me!
BJ beam... Is it only the 68/69 one i can use, or can i find ANY BJ (late) beam (but then be restricted to narrow five)? The last VW wreckers in Perth just shut down so its not quite as simple as just finding bits at the local yard... East coast is a looooooooong way away 🙁
My reasoning for not seeing an Engineer is that I'm not really doing anything new... everyone does this tried and tested conversion and ,where i can, i want to use VW parts which were designed for the job. That was part of my original q really, that my mate says there's all these rules and he's freaking me out (i dont want to invalidate my insurance).
BTW if anyone has any of this stuff for sale that i need then let me know... it may be that wide/narrow 5 is dictated by what parts are available.
68/69 is th only one that will fit you get late stud pattern and disc brakes using later parts from the spindles out. If you dont want to invalidate your insurance see an engineer and get him to sign off on it, true most people wouldn't notice the modification but if one does your insurance is void.
Samblers wrote:My reasoning for not seeing an Engineer is that I'm not really doing anything new... everyone does this tried and tested conversion and ,
The legal system doesn't care... as I said, you MUST get approval from the WA trabnsport and land management (or whatever it's called!)
[ Edited on 31-12-2006 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
OK, I'm coming round to needing to see an engineer... its my arse I guess (like john muir says, "you can go to hell in your own way"), and if my insurance was void and i had a crash... well...
OK, need a 68/69 beam... or one of the front disk conversion kits being sold by the guy in QLD (presume these are WA legal?)... i understand ball joint might be best but then again, if i've refurbed the king and link pin at some point then why not keep it?
This is off in the future somewhat, I'm just getting my head straight on it!
you could as prviously mentioned get a later beam and change the shock towers to fit it to a split, also as mentioned in a previuos post you can find a beam out of a late bay from a wrecker or someone wrecking a bay which would be complete , i have the replacement shock towers sitting in the shed if you are interested in a pair, i made up a template then had the plates water cut out of 10mm mild steel ,the only issue is i have extended the top of the shock tower up so i could move the top shock mounting bolt up higher to regain the lost shock travel after lowering , so you would need to redrill the top bolt hole to standard and trim any unwanted steel if desired
gravity wont get you high
Thanks for the help t2, and for the offer of bits. I'm still a way off from getting parts as you've probably guessed so stay tuned!
So, If i want wide five front and back, standard ride height and Indian IRS, The way i now understand it i'm chasing the following:
1. Engineer approval 😉
2. 68/69 BJ beam, or late bay beam and new side plates
3. All the front disk brake stuff from early bay
4. early bay spring plates
5. either early bay hubs, spindles etc, or late bay stuff and new drums to take out to wide 5
6. marriage counselling
Please tell me if i'm wrong
S
[ Edited on 2/1/2007 by Samblers ]
Samblers wrote:Thanks for the help t2, and for the offer of bits. I'm still a way off from getting parts as you've probably guessed so stay tuned!
So, If i want wide five front and back, standard ride height and Indian IRS, The way i now understand it i'm chasing the following:
1. Engineer approval 😉
2. 68/69 BJ beam, or late bay beam and new side plates
3. All the front disk brake stuff from early bay
4. early bay spring plates
5. either early bay hubs, spindles etc, or late bay stuff and new drums to take out to wide 5
6. marriage counselling
Please tell me if i'm wrong
S
[ Edited on 2/1/2007 by Samblers ]
pretty much on target, for the irs you need all the late bay running gear as in drive shafts and 2 kombi cv joints and boots.
you will also need 2 beetle cv joints and boots, beetle cvs bolt to the beetle gbox.
i think the irs kit needs a pair of bay window handbrake cables .
the original split bus springplates can be cut down to fit irs using a 68 springplate as a template, or buy some pre cut from kombi rescue or anywhere you like such as indian auto or the bus stop .
dont forget if you use a ball joint beam you will need a set of adjusters to lower the front end back to stock i like the indian ones personally but i am sure others have some good ones to buy, actually i have a friend making some in his workshop they are alittle different from the usual and do look the goods, i can give you his workshop number if you want it
just out of curiousity what motor are you going to run i heard irs with a single side plate gbox is a waste of time using a motor less than 1600cc, i have been on some cruizes with other split drivers running irs and 1600 motors and they seem to go great although some of the bigger hills they did strugle alittle.
cheers darren
[ Edited on 5-1-2007 by t2 ]
gravity wont get you high
I have Indian IRS and Lbug with Wide 5s. Anything is possible, just tell Kimm what you want and hey presto it happens. They are closed till the week after next btw.
Aslo consider if you want Bolt-In or Weld In IRS, there are some big advantages for bolt in, though weld in might be cheaper.
Darrens right, 1600TP is the motor of choice for the $$$ concious. With the Single Side Plate and IRS you will easily cruise above the legal speed limits (Warby's got stickers to prove it). They do climb hills pretty well, certainly better than a type 4 motor in a bay will.
Indian are working up a modified type 4 casing and cooling system for his limo, basically he wants the extra grunt but without having to worry about fitting it in the engine bay.
But then Tony's splitter hauls as does Mullers, think they are running 1916s.
Ah stuff it, go to EJ20T and be done with it.
[ Edited on 5-1-2007 by crewcabconnection ]
Loves a lolcat
All the standard kombi disc brakes are narrow 5 bolt pattern. The early wide 5 bays had 4 wheel drums.
I thought they had wide 5 disks? Thats why everyone wanted them???
No its the fact they bolt up to the early frame rail. The later ones have a different bolt pattern where the beam bolts to the body.
That is why if you get a late beam, usually a lot cheaper and easier to find, you need to change the side plates/shock towers to bolt it to the early body.
If you are going that way Rob King is doing a run of plates at a really good price at the moment.
The brakes on the 68/69 front end are the same size as 64-67 i am pretty sure. Only difference is B/J not king/link pin.
The only wide 5 discs are aftermarket. Volkswagen never made them on anything.
the fog clears....
Whats involved in converting a late beam to fit my split? Side plates/ shock towers etc
Anyone got pictures of this?
Easiest way is early beam\trailing arms, late spindles hubs and discs.
