I am very close to finishing of my bug, however I have reached a wall, the engine. Currently I have a 1200 40hp motor which i am looking to rebuild and turbo.
However I am getting slack and kinda want to get this project done and in the bag so that I can get some stuff finished off around the house and get the missus off my back.
So far I figure that I Have three options:
Type 1, Type 4 or a 'Subi or Rotary conversion'
I am trying to work out the bang for buck here and as such I have been trolling the forum engine sales and ofcourse ebay for anything that looks reasonable that doesn't require me to sell the house to do up.
So far I have seen a few type 4 engines out of kombi campers and the such. I figure that I can swap the cooling tin over to a sharp built, however I am wondering with this change do I have to perform any modifications to the inside of the engine bay. I currently have all rubbers in and it is painted up, so I don't won't the have to rip this all out and start hacking up the metal work.
Does a type 4 match up to a 12V converted 1200 trans and box? or is an adaptor plate required? I understand that the box is probably not going to take the power upgrade but i plan to upgrade it done the track, when i get some more funds together.
Type 1 engines - what am i looking at here, I know that i really don't want to go for anything below a 1600 dp but 0-1000 bucks doesn't really get you much here, i.e. nothing that doesn't require an overhaul of some kind. However if i can get to some wreckers etc I could probably get it going for under 2K.
Sub and rotary conversions - I understand that the rotary is the only engine that will fit without changing the body, however I still need to mount a radiator and i understand that it will not work efficently mounted under the rear seat over the trans & box, where i planned.
And it is more than likely that the box wouldn't handle the power anyways so i don't think that this is going to be a good option for the imediate time.
I was thinking of going type 1 1600dp with mega squirt and turbo setup - i have heard good things about these setups.
I have a very small snail turbo and i am pretty sure the mega squire is around 350 from the state unassembled.
Anyways just seeking some advice i suppose and if anyone has an engine sitting around collecting dust, my ears are open....
Cheers Matt.
type 1 hipo = exy
type 4 hipo = more exy
NA subie = less exy than type 1 or 4 if you want more than 120hp.
turbo subie = less exy than type 1/4 in the motor department but more exy in the gearbox department
rotor = more exy than subie. Also, do you know if you can fit a 13b. I would have thought a 12a NA motor would be the limit in QLD. And the 12as are hard to come by as import motors.
The cheapest thing you can put in is a stock 1600 dualport. The more power you want, the more it will cost exponentially, and the less time it will last.
I think (stressing IMHO) the next cheapest option hipo wise is an EJ22 subie.
Depends whether you want to stay aircooled or not. Aircooled is simpler in some ways and mechanics know how to fix it. Subie is better for just about everything else, but no mechanic (bar the installer) will want to touch it. Also, the whole issue of engineering gets a little more tricky with conversions. Not hard, but just a bit more tricky is all.
I've had a few 1640s and now have a 2.5l Subaru powered buggy. The subaru runs better, tunes itself, is a breaze to diagnoze and puts out lots of power. However, modding it past stock is expensive. VW motors are a lot lighter and easier to develop slowly, but more expensive and yield less power.
There's no right or wrong, just two very different options. I also bet, whatever you choose you'll wish you had one from the other camp too, coz I'd also love to own a stroker with IDAs, even though I know my engine is more modern and more reliable.
old school cool VS new school cool 🙄
Who can say what's better?!😵💫
[ Edited on 10-1-07 by pete wood ]
I would suggest working out your budget first, and then weighing up what you want to spend.
Rebuld and turbo for a 1200???
There is a lot of combinations that are possible, mostly dependant on what you want to do with the car, and how much you wish to spend.
Just beware that buying a type 4 engine is the CHEAP part of the conversion. Rotary probably more so, + engineering...
Sharp built kits will seal up on the engine bay seal, once you eventually get all the extras that didnt come with the 'complete kit'. Expect to spend at least another $1000 on upright bits, + alternator + exhaust after the engine.
If I were you, id buy a good running 1600tp, make it look pretty, and enjoy the car while you fix the house/wife, and then decide how much she has left to spend on your engine....
A 1600 in a 1200 box will scream off the mark.
A 1600 with fully merged exhaust & twin IDFs will MOOVE.
You will do that for $2k
Do that then consider your options.
Futue te ipsum!!!
Bizarre wrote:A 1600 in a 1200 box will scream off the mark.
A 1600 with fully merged exhaust & twin IDFs will MOOVE.
You will do that for $2k
Do that then consider your options.
Throw in an engle 110 and clean up the stock heads (port/polish, single HD springs and stock valves, rockers and PR) and you're laughing.
Hi Matt
I thought I'd add a bit here because it is something I have spent way too much time considering.
I reckon the first decision to be made it what do you actually want your car to do and what are you building it for? A weekend circuit racer vs sunny day cruiser etc... once you've decided this you can look at your budget and then crawl off to a corner and weep 🙁
Except for fitting up a stocker, which ever way you go its going to have troubles of some sort and cost probably twice what you had planned.
I'm currently fitting a T4 into my 1302 using the Sharpbuild T1 style fiberglass cylinder covers and an aftermarket 36 horse shroud. I'm doing basically all the rest of the mods to the parts that are required to make the cooling fit. Its not quite as easy as I had hoped, although I'm sure if you're a sheetmetal worker by trade this sort of stuff is all in a days work.
I suspect that this is very unlikely to be the last engine in the car, but hopefully it will satisfy the power thirst for now. I would imagine that is likely to be the same for yourself, unless you decide to sell up sometime in the future. So from that perspective you could find a good 1600, track down some 36 webers or Dells off an old Alfa and fit up a decent exhaust. Then put the pennies away for the dream motor... and deciding on that still won't be easy!
I agree will Petes comments, I'd be keen to fit up a Subi, but then I'd also love a Turbo EFI Type 4. The money will no doubt dictate the end result and lack of time at the moment is dictating the quickest result.
One note is that the SOHC subi's don't really require much (or any) cutting to fit up, especially if you turn the inlet manifold around or use the custom off road throttle body inverter.
Best of luck with the decision making!
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
pete wood wrote:type 1 hipo = exy
type 4 hipo = more exy
[ Edited on 10-1-07 by pete wood ]
why go hipo on the t4 if you dont need to i got the stock 2L, and have driven it in both the stock form and with a mild cam and it has more than enough power to handle most thing and with the right gear box it will just run and run all day
“We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free.” Bill Hicks
the chaos project - click me
Donk will fit like a glove
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=59485
[ Edited on 11-1-2007 by lobus ]
.
i forgot to mention the t4 fits in the engine bay of most bugs easily
“We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free.” Bill Hicks
the chaos project - click me
Is your bug swing axle? I wouldn't ever consider a turbo subi or rotary in a swing axle car.
if you go rotary a 13 b injected will not fit without slightly bloxing out the rear fire wall a bit to allow room for the injection system ( this is shown in my webpage ) also if you go mazda injection you will need a full aftermaket computer system to run the engine otherwise you will need to have an entire mazda dash wired up in your bug .. ( can be very expensive,, i overlooked this when i dove into an injected rotary conversion ,, this ment needing to fork out an extra $1500 for a good computer system , just be aware of that factor as it is easy to over looked as i have been there
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull
🥷,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVWman we all ask this question my answer is get a 1776cc dual carbs then if thats not enough sell it, and go something else,,,, ha ha says me that hasnt driven a more powerful type one motor than a stock 1600 single carb
and im starting with a 2017cc full house motor cant wait...
[ Edited on 11-1-2007 by kroozzn62 ]
show us your gates
depends on what the car is used for i guess??
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull
🥷,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVWget a brand newie mexico 1600 and get that babie on the road.....luuuurve the colour!
Thanks everyone for the help,
thanks dumone, i like the colour also, is ford velocity...
lobus, i have seen your post previously and seriouly considerd it, however transport would be a killer (cost wise) at the moment..
I think that i will look for a 1600dp and go the twin carbs to start with, that way i will have a good backup engine for when i get the money for a monster.
yes it is a swinger but, i have a camber compensator and i am lowering it and i am also installing limiting straps (after it is registered) to remove the rollover possibilities.
ultimately it is a too and from work car, with a dream of doing some hill climbs/sprints and an attempt at some drifting, so at the moment looking more for the reliability i suppose.
but above all i think dumone has sumed it up, i need to get it on the road :-)
Cheers,
Matt.
Sounds like an excellent plan Matt, and one you won't regreat I'm sure. When I got mine going on a stock 1600 it was grins all round- I might not have out sprinted most cars on the road, but it pootled around beautifully.
Barls makes a good point, you may find the power of an almost stock T4 is plenty...BUT I'd stick to your currently plan for now, get it on the road and enjoy it (rebuilding any engine isn't cheap and T4's are renowned for being more expensive).
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
MattY-64 wrote:I think that i will look for a 1600dp and go the twin carbs to start with, that way i will have a good backup engine for when i get the money for a monster.
Matt.
that sounds the go, also consider some whiteline sway bars front and rear if you intend to go hard, i got em on my swinger, and lurve 'em:thumb
1600tp to get it on the road. dont need twin carbs. if you want to go big, then you spend big $. 1200 box will go, build the motor of your choice. dont waste your time with a 1200 tp.
nick
A 1600 to get it on the road would be a good start.
However, if it is a to and from work car then seriously look into an EJ22 SOHC suby. There will be minimal cutting. It will be much much nicer to live with every day than the other options. And it has a decent heater for those cold ipswitch nights.
I have had an 1835, 1776 and a 1916cc VW motor. I even bought a couple of type 4's and was going to build a cheap supercharged type 4. But I costed the type 4 conversion, and found a jap conversion would be much cheaper. The VW motors were all nice, but nothing compared to the modern EFI jap engines.
Wes -
www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control...
🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.
Put a stock 1300 in it, cheap as 🙂
how did you find the performance of the 1916cc and the 1776cc dub engine wes ?? i have never experianced how they go ??
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull
🥷,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVWcompared to a stock 1600, a 1776 with twin kadrons is a great budget step-up. But if you were building a motor you might as well go 1915.
The 1915 with mild cam, high ratio rockers, 044 heads, twin 44IDF webers and other goodies was quite an expensive engine to build (I got mine 2nd hand from a friend). It was quite a good motor, but you can't compare it with the V6. In comparison, it had no low end torque, it didn't rev and had half the peak power. It was noisy, not smooth, the carbs and jets got dirty, didn't like optimax or fuel variations much and had no heat or AC.
Wes -
www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control...
🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.
hmm ok cool i was just curious on how well a hot vw engine goes , the most experiance i have had is with a 1600 dp , webbers, high ratio rockers and a rediculous cam that made the car difficult to put around in
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull
🥷,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVWBaja Wes wrote:A 1600 to get it on the road would be a good start.
However, if it is a to and from work car then seriously look into an EJ22 SOHC suby. There will be minimal cutting. It will be much much nicer to live with every day than the other options. And it has a decent heater for those cold ipswitch nights.
I have had an 1835, 1776 and a 1916cc VW motor. I even bought a couple of type 4's and was going to build a cheap supercharged type 4. But I costed the type 4 conversion, and found a jap conversion would be much cheaper. The VW motors were all nice, but nothing compared to the modern EFI jap engines.
Don't tell us things like that Wes!
I'd love to turbo my Type 4 engine.... but my wifes car is a 2.2 Legacy and I just can't get enough of the way that engine drives, its fantastic....I keep thinking to myself how much better it would be in a Beetle, but then I'd have to find somewhere to fit a radiator... or the spare... or the luggage I wanted to carry.
Funny thing is the original reason a lot of the guys in Europe where fitting up Type 4 engines was because they where cheap reilable performance as there was plenty of them around. Now days on this side of the world Type 4's are generally far from cheap or plentiful (especialy in NZ) and realistically the "cheap" reliable performance engine is..... yup the Subi.
Stick with the 1600, get it on the road then try and get rides with friends and check out what their cars drive like with differing engines, then decide what you like and how much you need. Trouble is I drove a freinds 1776 and went "oh yeah", got taken for a spin in a converted 1302 with a Subi 2.5L and went "Yee haa" and then visited Aussie on holiday and met Jak Rizzo and got taken for a spin in his 1302 with the Subi turbo conversion and went, well, very quiet really...dumb founded is probably the best description!
Back to my little type 4
🙂
Cheers
Jeremy
[ Edited on 15-1-2007 by Jeza ]
......random gibberish for today.......
there is NO cheap way about making your beetle go "fast",
working a VW engine costs alot to get big power, engine conversion are lots of work, thus lots of work = money,
then you have the gearbox troubles...
put aside 3-4K at least
76 baywindow kombi - V8 & Weddle racing diff and gearbox
Daily driven beach cruiser
sell it and buy that EJ20T T3 Bus for 7k. One day you'll want a T3, its an evolutionary thing. Then you can freak out 6 passengers in the comfort.
Loves a lolcat
I'd agree with just sticking a stock or slightly warm 1600 engine in it - Cheap, you know it fits straight in, no engineering issues etc. It'd be good as a backup engine as well later down the track.
Jon
THUDKNUCKLE wrote:also if you go mazda injection you will need a full aftermaket computer system to run the engine otherwise you will need to have an entire mazda dash wired up in your bug ..
So if I understand well, you can't just plug the ecu to the motor and starts it? When you talk about complete dash, you mean the cluster where are the temp and fuel gauge,tach and speedo?
Megasquirt cost only about 400$ and appears to do the job very well.
yep that is correct you ned the whole cluster and dash with everything plugged inand working 🙂 otherwise the engine has trouble recongnising all the nessercary information and therefore the computer switches to limp mode ,, which is about 25% power and will damge the eninge if run extensivley in this manor ( as told by mr rotaries) limp mode is desinged purley to get you home from an emergancy in the middle of nowhere incase of an engine or eletrical problem
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull
🥷,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVWA very interesting/informative thread - cheers guys for all the info.
64 Beetle. Like a beaten up 70's speedboat.
