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Engine build questions - cam selection, head rebuild etc

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Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#582594
Hi all,

Hoping that you collectively would be able to answer a few questions on behalf of my father.

He is about to start building an engine for his 62 beetle, which is a weekend car only. Its going to be a stroker motor, as when we bilt the motor for my red beetle and we ordered a 69mm crank......we had a 78mm crank delivered for the same price.....

At any rate, we have the case, crank and heads, and would like some advice on the following;

* Who would be good to send the heads to to have them rebuilt (they are heavily worked std (043 ??) castings, with large D ports (cant remember if they are welded or not) ? I was thinking of the shop that Dangerous Dave was with but cannot recall the name. We are in Perth but dont mind sending them over east to ensure a good result. We expect the heads would need a general freshen up, which means new seats and guides and they also need valves, springs, retainers etc.

* Given we are not made of money, we are thinking about putting a small 4 barrel holley (ie ~ 650cfm) on this engine rather than webers (a rebuilt 650 holley is only about $400, which wont even buy us one weber / dellorto, let along manifolds and linkages). What do people think about this idea ? I understand that the manifold will be important, as they are a plenum base carb, but I have seen 4bbl holley manifolds advertised in the US.

* Cam selection. This is the big question for me. The motor will probably be 78 x 94 (or 92, not sure what the heads are cut to) = 2165cc. We are after a cam that keeps the car driveable but will give good power to 5500 / 6000 (crank is c/weighted and rotating assembly will be balanced). On the assumption of the 4bbl holley, what would be a good cam for us ?

* Rocker selection - havent got the rockers yet, need to decide on cam first - so any suggestions are welcome.

* Where to buy rods, barrels and pistons ? Are prices competitive if we buy locally, and if so who should we speak to ?

* Should we put a deep sump on the motor ? If so, which one or is it not critical ?

* Finally, should we run an external oil cooler in addition to the stock location ?

Thanks in advance, I know thats alot of questions, but there are some really cluey people on this forum and I'm keen to pick your collective brains !!!!

Cheers,

Doug

hellbugged 48's and straight cuts

5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·

#582635
hey Doug,

Ben Durie did a great job on my heads,

i really liked my berg 310 cam, and about to try the GB 309, which was reccomended by my guru......

Rod Penrose does parts as cheap as you will get, using ratio rockers to gain lift at the valve rather than cam helps the entire drive train live longer.....

run a deep sump when you intend to run revs higher than stock, they also aid a small amount with cooling and help prevent oil starvation with cornering

i'd run a cooler,others wouldn't,

but the main reason i'm answering is to recommend me ole' matey from ebay with CHEAP carb deals. his communication was very good and delivery swift and sensibly priced...........

http://stores.ebay.com.au/ALFA1750S-CARBURETORS-PARTS-STORE_Carburetors_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ3QQftidZ2QQtZkm

sounds like a nice project, have fun

[ Edited on 2-4-07 by dumone ]

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 ·

#582699
Just a quick answer for now...
In WA try Harris Engines or Hi-Speed conversions for your heads.
I have seen good port work come form both these shops.

I like Daimo's response too,
Crankshaft Engineering 07 38067488 is where I used to work, but Iam sure there are people closer to you than that.

The manifold will be a restriction with the 4 barrel unless you do a lot of homework!
westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#582725
Thanks for responses guys, much appreciated.

Dave - I'm particularly interested in hearing your opinions on cams.

Not sure Hi Speed conversions is around anymore... unless I'm mistaken - will have another look.

Main reasons we are considering the 4bbl is the price of webers / dellortos (kadrons too small for this engine I think, without going the 46 IDK route) and the fact we have previously had real troubles trying to find someone interested in setting up a pair of webers on a beetle for less than a grand. Daylight robbery comes to mind.

Daimo - thanks for the link - I'd seen that guy before, but I dont think my dad has, so will let him know. Does the guy have much experience with VW's ? would he be able to send the carbs jetted relatively close ?

We arent actually looking for any port work to be done..... as the heads already have been taken out a long way - we just need them rebuilt.

Thanks for the leads guys will look into them. Now to work out which cam and what induction......

Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#582727
ps has anyone seen the 4bbl manifolds with twin runners (ie custom end castings more like the mexi beetle fi, with individual runners for each port) ?

If not, we may have to fab one ourselves...... not impossible 🙂

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#582741
do a search on STF

A person there built up a stroker and made a plennum set up.

Posted some videos of it.

Be a lot easier if you overcame you dislike of jetting and did it your self.

You will still need to jet the 4 bbl sucker.
I know which will be more driveable.
I know which will be more efficient.

Carbs come up cheaply. Das sold the Del45's the other day for $650.
You aint gunna do it cheaper than that
Futue te ipsum!!!

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 ·

#582800
My favourite cam is a V26 Engle with 1.4 or larger arms..
Daimo knows which GB part number it is.
If you want to use VW rocker arms use the W120 engle,
or for a move of the torque UP in the rev range, a Scat C95 or Engle W 130.
westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

hellbugged 48's and straight cuts

5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·

#582825
not sure on the ebay dude and VW's, he most times offers to set up the carbs with jets and vents of your choice, none the less, he sells every jet size and they're like cheaps as chips.......grab a heap and have a play

yar, the V26 is the GB 309...........


i've linked up the berg cam descriptions, the first is for standard rocker, the second for high lift rockers..............use the links to get a sensible description of how/which rpm's/with what, the cams work best........you can grab the engle numbers from there too😉

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=6_165_2773

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?name=Cams%20Designed%20for%201.4,%201.45,%201.45,%201.54,%20Up%20to%201.65%20Ratio%20Rockers&cPath=166

Gracey Wolfsburg Wizard

511 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#582846
Not much to add, except regarding the carb setup.
If you do go with the Holley I personally think the 650 would be massive overkill. A 650 will easily feed a decent V8, and my mate's 11 sec HO used to run a 750. As you already know their a plenum based carb and as such they can be a lot smaller than say comparable Weber's etc. that are set up as individual runner (IR) style.
If you can design/build a decent manifold then I'd recomend a 4 barrel 390 Holley with progressive secondary's. Their not a real well know model and I think they were released as an economy carby and they look just like a 4 barrel 600 from the outside. This is the same carb that was on my brother's stroked/cammed red motor EH and that sucka screamed.

On a side note, I remember a V8 powered 9sec drag car that used to run twin 44IDF's on a plenum style manifold.The same engine would have been undercarburated with quad 44IDF's on a IR style manifold. This illustrates the vast difference between manifold setups.

Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#582922
Thanks for the advice - agreed 650 is massive overkill, I'm not full bottle on all the 4bbl designations. 390 sounds a much better fit.

Anybody got a good link to any information about plenum type inlet manifold design ?

As an alternative (yes, you might find I am being resistant to webers....) who knows anything about the big bore kadrons ?

I really appreciate all comments on this - no decisions have been made as yet, we are researching and investigating at this stage.

BeetleJuice Officially Full-On Dubber

350 posts · joined Sep 2006 ·

#582977
HI Doug


Peter Richards I believe is playing around with a couple of engines using the Kadron 40's. I think he has a couple in stock too!

His number is Ph 0265 650067
FringeDweller

vwo60 Veteran Volks Folk

2,036 posts · joined Feb 2007 ·

#583234
hi doug
if you want a cam that will produce the power up to 5500-6000 rpm with excelent idle and use standard rockers go for a engle 110,gene berg recomended the 110 to me as the best alround cam that produces power from idle to 6000rpm with excellent drivability,unless you pay a fortune for good quality ratio rockers stick with the standard ones with a solid rocker shaft kit and pay attention to to the valve geometry,i have had good experence with crankshaft engineering in brisbane and can recommend them,how are you going to close the boot with the holley and these carbs were never intended to run on a vw ,44idf webbers are an excellent choice and can be picked up in the states for $600 us for genuine webbers and will probibly run out of the box with very little tuning and this has been the case on two of my engines,i currently have a 2054 and made the mistake of buying 44mm kadrons and have no luck in tuning out the flat spot at the transition point,i even had mr kadron in the states set them up but his promise of a good resault failed to materialise,if your crank has vw journals the vw 1600 b rod is suitable,have the rod recoed paying attention to the length to make sure they are the same and if you want fit arp rod bolts again crankshaft engineering have the equipment to carry out this task including pin boring of the little and big end which will corect any difference in the rod length,deep sump is a good idea but you need to make sure that you have enough ground clearence with the sump fitted ,keep the dog house cooler and fit a temp gauge,this will tell you wheather you need a extra oil cooler and if you do fit a oil thermostat along with an oil filter,when you have your heads recoed check about running unleaded fuel and have a think about the compression ratio ,i set my 2054 at 8:1 so it lasts