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rufbug Seriously Crusin Dubber

127 posts · joined May 2003 ·

#652962
Does anyone know whether the aircooled VW engine will be able to run on ethanol (e85).
If so what is required, i have read that the octane rating will be 105, quite suitable for a high comp motor.

found some more info and answered my own question with some internet research.😎

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#652969
The mexicans have had metho for years so know how to work with it but Aussie stuff is E10.
Pay your debts, CxxT

rufbug Seriously Crusin Dubber

127 posts · joined May 2003 ·

#653002
they have e85 in nowra now, if you want a good read or video to watch about alcohol(ethanol) go here. http://www.permaculture.com and read or listen about
Alcohol can be a gas by David Blume.
this stuff is 105 octane, does not leave soot in your oil and leaves your oil nice and clear and your engine lasts 3 times longer and does not leave carbon depoits.
if you watch the movies this bloke blows all the ethanol(alcohol) myths out of the water.........literally.

rufbug Seriously Crusin Dubber

127 posts · joined May 2003 ·

#653013
just a little info here.

did you know the first cars were running on alcohol as gasolene was not yet invented and tyres during the war with usa and japan were made from a alcohol bi-product.

66deluxe Custom Title Time!

1,593 posts · joined Aug 2005 ·

#653014
There is an e85 pump on Sangate rd in brisbane, i want to build an engine for it, you can run an aircooled on it, just need the right fuel lines and correct parts for your carb.
This is my Volkswagen, there are many like it, but this one is mine. Without me my Volkswagen is useless, without my Volkswagen, I am useless.

61 Karmann Ghia 2110cc type1 w Los Panchito's
66 Deluxe Beetle 2270 type 4
10 Subaru WRX Impreza

rufbug Seriously Crusin Dubber

127 posts · joined May 2003 ·

#653019
from what this guy says the corrosion deal with the metals is a hype from the oil companies and the best thing to run your ethanol is a higher compression engine as the fuel is burnt more efficiently and therefore cooler, gas burns at approx 1400f where as alcohol burns at 1000f within the combustion chamber.

mike95 Learner Dubber

14 posts · joined Feb 2008 ·

#653164
im looking at tuning my wrx on e85. Its currently tuned on 98 pulp.
It is already setup with bigger injectors, fuel pump, aftermarket ecu, & LC1 wideband sensor.

You will run lean if you dont tune for e85. It burns alot quicker, & you use about 30% more fuel than regular pulp.

I dont think i will try E85 in my type 3 though. I dont think the old fuel system could handle that much ethanol.
I have run E10 in the type 3 once, but i generally run 95 or 98 pulp in the vw.

Some positives from E85 fuel are that your motor will run cooler, you can run a few degress more ignition advance, & more boost in turbocharged engines. The higher octane means less chance of the engine knock. But you will use approx 30% more fuel.

On Monday night in Sydney E85 was $1.20 something a liter. 98 pulp was around $1.70 a liter. If you use approx 30% more fuel with E85, it ends up working out around the same price.

Im not looking at E85 fuel for a cost saving, but more from a increased performance point of view.

I bought 10 liters of E85 from the United servo in Rozelle Sydney the other night. Put in 10 liters of E85 mixed with 50 liters of 98 pulp.
I had the laptop with me to adjust the tune. I only adjusted the injector trims a little
to put more fuel in across the map.

Only very early days, but i plan to eventually have an 100% E85 map for the subaru.
I would still have a 98 pulp map, that i could use when i cant get E85.

below is a quote from a subaru forum, which has a really good thread on E85

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
what is the ideal fuel air mixture for E85

If you are tuning with a wideband O2 sensor you will want to switch it to Lamda mode to get valid fuel air mixtures with blended fuels. If you can only get gasoline AFR's, simply divide the gasoline AFR's by 1.5 to get the true AFR for 100% E85. If running a partial mixture you can make proportional changes based on the percentage of E85 in the mix.

Here are some comparisions of stoichmetric fuel mixtures for different fuel blends:
======== stoichmetric AFR ===== max power rich AFR
Gasoline ---------- 14.7:1 -------------------12.5
100% E-85 ------- 9.73-9.8:1 ------------- ~ 9:1 - 8:1
100% fuel ethanol - 9:1 ------------------- ~ 7.2:1

One source specifies that the proper fuel tune (stoich) for a VW Golf running 22% ethanol was 12.7:1 (this reference was probably from the Brazil tests)

Ethanol reaches max torque at richer mixtures than gasoline will.
Using a 99% ethanol mixture MEP increases with mixtures up to 40% excess fuel where with gasoline MEP is reached near 20% excess fuel. Over all thermal effeciency for both gasoline and ethanol is reached near 15% excess fuel.

E85 burns faster than gasoline at best mixtures so it is an inherently more effecient fuel. It also produces more exhaust gas for a give weight of fuel air mix giving higher average cylinder pressures inspite of lower EGT's. With streight E85 in a properly tuned car its good for about +5% power / torque increase. I suspect on a turbocharged car the benefit is larger.

My source lists stoich for E85 as 9.8:1 ( "Burn rates and emissions from ethanol gasoline blends" )
http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu/resea...5-2004.doc.pdf

will a wide band O2 sensor accurately read fuel air mixtures with E85 blends ?

To get an accurate AFR reading you need to switch the meter to Lambda or equivalence ratio setting rather than AFR. Most O2 sensors assume you are running gasoline and will report a stoichimetric mixture as 14.7:1 which is the proper value for gasoline. E85 has a Stoichemetric mixture of between 9.7 - 10:1 and a max power mixture of about 6.98-8.5:1 or so, where with gasoline it is 12.5:1-to 13.1.

If you must use an O2 sensor that only reports gasoline AFR information simply divide the numbers it reports by 1.47 - 1.50.

On gasoline, my ECU is supposed to give a mixture of 11.5:1 and on 100% E85 the dyno's wide band reported an AFR of 11.6:1. That means that my true AFR on the E85 was about 7.8:1 which is right in the middle of max power mixtures for E85.

rufbug Seriously Crusin Dubber

127 posts · joined May 2003 ·

#653181
http://ethanolfacts.com.au/myths lists that fuel consumption will actually increase by 1-3% dependant on driving styles.
they stated that also that the SAAB BIO car ran 124kW on petrol and when using e85 it put out 147kW, so hopefully this will be
the way that we will want to be going.

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#653216
E85?

85 percent Vodka?

Who/where is selling that?

No way would I run my car on that. Holden is only just gearing up for E85 use with its future V8 and V6 engines

At present, E10 (10 percent) is on sale and acceptable for some engines
Pay your debts, CxxT

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#653367
E85 is now for sale in many parts of NSW...

everything I read about it was BAD for your engine...

but this info most probably came from the BIG oil company who doesn't want to sell E85...

VWs have been running on alcohol [not vodka] in Mexico and brazil for many years...
Beetle engines were especially made for it...

the News above is mostly GOOD...

a lot of scare mongering is about...

Government will probably add MORE fuel excise once they start selling heaps of it...
same as LPG...

LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

Judsons4eva Officially Full-On Dubber

270 posts · joined Oct 2004 ·

#653792
There has been extensive studies funded by the Department of Environment on the use of greater that 10% ethanol. It is not that it is a bad fuel - it has higher octane etc. The point is unless the rubber hoses and other fuel system parts are tolerant to ethanol you could get into big trouble. Normal rubber turns to jelly and other metal parts corrode. E85 cars have ethanol tolerant parts. Just any old Aussie tuned VW or Subi could get into trouble. In Brazil they were made to operate on E85.

In addition if your injectors or carbi can't deliver twice the amount of fuel for a given load your engine will run lean and fry.

About $5 million has been spent on these studies! Lots of reading material below.

http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/ethanol-2007/pubs/ethanol-fuels-report.pdf
http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/2000hours-vehicle-fleet/pubs/2000-hours-vehicles.pdf
http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/
550 Porsche Spyder
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rufbug Seriously Crusin Dubber

127 posts · joined May 2003 ·

#653909
you do have to do your research but many are not and go on some hear say.....
with the rubbers in the car fuel system it is mainly those pre 84/83 cars. since then the quality of the rubber has vastly improved and ethanol is now not a problem.
Did you know that oil companies are getting subsidies from the goverment for not supplying as much oil too!

Paul

General_Failure Use your head, don't abuse it!

1,036 posts · joined Jun 2004 ·

#655057
Are there any lists which have the locations of e86? I'd really like to get some to see how the van runs on it.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#655127
rufbug wrote:they have e85 in nowra now, if you want a good read or video to watch about alcohol(ethanol) go here. http://www.permaculture.com and read or listen about
Alcohol can be a gas by David Blume.
this stuff is 105 octane, does not leave soot in your oil and leaves your oil nice and clear and your engine lasts 3 times longer and does not leave carbon depoits.
if you watch the movies this bloke blows all the ethanol(alcohol) myths out of the water.........literally.
Very interested in the Info..
so, far all i've heard on the TV is

the professional view is that it will not replace unleaded fuel as Your engine and most other things will melt!!
its NOT really suitable for normal vehicles...
its really Low in octane rating and will wreck any engine using it... and You will only get half the mileage compared to real unleaded...


LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

General_Failure Use your head, don't abuse it!

1,036 posts · joined Jun 2004 ·

#655961
I have been following this argument on another site for a while.

I realise that ethanol has a lower energy density than regular unleaded. What causes the difference in fuel economy though? Is it trying to get the vehicle to accelerate like when it is running from petrol?

What has always bothered me about the Otto cycle engine is that maintaining a constant speed wastes a lot of energy on just spinning, spinning, spinning. I can't help thinking that a smaller motor that can rev lower easily and is coupled with a well thought out transmission could blitx petrol engines while running on ethanol. Please don't bring up the revetech motor. I swear it's just a modified Bourke engine.

If I upped the compression on my motor, e86 would generate better power, right? so a smaller, high compression motor would work well too, wouldn't it?

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand the big issue.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.