The "12 volt cars with 6 volt starter" noise!

djnee Officially Full-On Dubber

341 posts · joined Mar 2009 · 8 Aug 2009, 6:01 pm

#728220

Hmmmm....i'm almost at the point where the "novelty" of the "UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURP!!!!" noise when trying to start the car in the morning is wearing thin!

Sometimes it catches 1st or 2nd go which i can deal with...but i find that when theres a crowd of people, like whilst doing the school run (lol!), it's like 9th or 10th go before it starts......with that horrible grating noise!

How hard is this to cure.....and rough costs involved?

Thanks

Neil

It May Never End

Matt Ryan Fahrvergnugen

890 posts · joined Jan 2006 · 8 Aug 2009, 7:18 pm

#728236

Neil ,

Ring gear on flywheel is chewed. Engine will stop at pretty much the same spots, so you're nearly always trying to start in the "chewed" sections.

Easiest and cheapest way out of it would be to drop engine, mark flywheel position, undo flywheel gland nut, remove flywheel then rotate the flywheel and bolt back on. Usually, the ring gear on flywheel cops it worse than the gear on the starter.

Also, a 6 volt solenoid on a 6 volt starter, running at 12 volts, throws the starter gear much harder along the helix on the starter shaft. This results in the gear spinning much faster when it hits the flywheel ring gear. That is the cause of "chewing".

This can be fixed by fitting a 12 volt solenoid to your 6 volt starter motor (cheap and easy). Early 12 volt Holden ones will fit but must be Bosch, some were Lucas (prince of Darkness). If you don't do this you will just end up chewing out new sections of ring gear on the flywheel.

The end result is a starter that doesn't chew the ring gear but turns the engine over real quick, you barely have to touch the key and it's up and running.

Or, you could always spend up and change to a twelve volt flywheel, plus a twelve volt starter, plus a 12 volt clutch kit and grind your gearbox bell housing to suit the bigger flywheel.

Regards,

Matt.

http://portvwforum.freeforums.org

djnee Officially Full-On Dubber

341 posts · joined Mar 2009 · 8 Aug 2009, 7:48 pm

#728238

Ah damn 🙁

Thanks for the reply Matt....wasn't thinking it was going to be an engine out job. Not really equipped here for that (i think??! Never had to drop the engine before)

Would it be worth trying the 12v solenoid first to see if it cures it without dropping the engine?

It May Never End

Matt Ryan Fahrvergnugen

890 posts · joined Jan 2006 · 8 Aug 2009, 8:06 pm

#728239

djnee wrote:Ah damn 🙁

Thanks for the reply Matt....wasn't thinking it was going to be an engine out job. Not really equipped here for that (i think??! Never had to drop the engine before)

Would it be worth trying the 12v solenoid first to see if it cures it without dropping the engine?

There's always a first time Neil😊

There is a small chance that fitting a 12 volt solenoid will buy you some time but in the end, the ring gear is still chewed. It might get you to 1 or 2 try's to start rather than 9 or 10 but you will not solve the problem completely. Then again, it might make no difference at all.

Fitting the solenoid is definitely a DIY job, make sure you lube the shaft in the extended position with some anti seize, before you install it. (I can't remember if you can just pull it out, or if you have to put 12 volts in to get it to stick out)

Regards,

Matt.

http://portvwforum.freeforums.org

greedy53 Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,062 posts · joined Mar 2006 · 9 Aug 2009, 4:25 pm

#728319

until the first one we all have never dropped an engine before ether it really is easy just a good floor jack i have 2 from super cheap works fine 1 for lowering the engine and 1 for the body to raise it by putting it across the y frame

👍👍😂🙅🥷😬🤓

djnee Officially Full-On Dubber

341 posts · joined Mar 2009 · 10 Aug 2009, 4:11 pm

#728484

Ok.....im tempted to try and get the engine out myself....it's something i deffo want to be able to do some day, so may as well be now i guess!

So what needs removing then?

I know the engines held in by 4 main bolts, but other than that is there a checklist of things i need to remove or disconnect?

Obviously fuel pipe / throttle cable.....anything else?

Thx

It May Never End

Matt Ryan Fahrvergnugen

890 posts · joined Jan 2006 · 10 Aug 2009, 5:57 pm

#728500

here is a link that will walk you through engine removal procedure:

http://www.vw-resource.com/engine4.html

This description assumes that you are using a small trolley jack of the type normally carried to change a flat tyre, so there is lots of stacking wood to get the height required. The rest of the info is all you need if you have a decent jack.

Regards,

Matt.

http://portvwforum.freeforums.org

djnee Officially Full-On Dubber

341 posts · joined Mar 2009 · 7 Sep 2009, 3:05 pm

#733897

Sorry to revive an old topic everyone, but after i fit the new pushrod tubes i'm thinking that this job needs to be next on the list as it's highly annoying!

Im going to change to a 12 volt solenoid to begin with, and if that doesn't help then i'll drop the engine and turn the flywheel as somebody previously advised.

My only problem is that i don't really have an understanding of what i'm replacing!

Can someone show me a pic of a 12 volt solenoid!? Is it something that i take out of my existing 6v one and replace with a 12v one?

Matt mentioned that Bosch / Lucas make them...so is this something i can walk in and pick up from any auto shop or is this VW specialist only?

Thanks again for your help, as this time i really have no clue what i need to buy or even ask for! lol

It May Never End

djnee Officially Full-On Dubber

341 posts · joined Mar 2009 · 10 Sep 2009, 3:07 pm

#734443

Sorry to bump, but just realised i never got an answer on the following....can anyone help?

djnee wrote:Ref 6v starter / 12v system.. Somebody said i can try a 12v solenoid.

I want to try to a 12 volt solenoid to begin with, and if that doesn't help then i'll drop the engine and turn the flywheel as somebody previously advised.

My only problem is that i don't really have an understanding of what i'm replacing!

Can someone show me a pic of a 12 volt solenoid!? Is it something that i take out of my existing 6v one and replace with a 12v one?

Apparently Matt mentioned that Bosch / Lucas make them...so is this something i can walk in and pick up from any auto shop or is this VW specialist only?

Thanks again for your help, as this time i really have no clue what i need to buy or even ask for! lol

Thanks

It May Never End

Matt Ryan Fahrvergnugen

890 posts · joined Jan 2006 · 10 Sep 2009, 11:20 pm

#734545

Neil,

Just remove your current solenoid and replace it with the appropriate 12 Volt one.

here is a pic of an early 6volt solenoid:

And here is the 12volt one, later 6volt ones looked like this too:

If you have the early style, then an early 12volt Holden one will be the same MUST be Bosch Holden went 12v in 1953, I think. Anything 12volt before the EH model (early '60's) should be ok.

If you have the later 6volt style, then a regular 12volt VW one will fit.

Here is how they look fitted to the starter:

(1) late 6 Volt

(2) late 6volt (on right) next to a 12volt, which looks a bit shorter and fatter but it's just the camera angle, they're pretty much the same except for the part numbers, shaft diameter and the number of teeth and size of the gear.

(3) Here is a very pretty, early 6volt:

Regards,

Matt.

http://portvwforum.freeforums.org

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 11 Sep 2009, 12:23 am

#734553

Yes,
as suggested, I'd try replacing the solenoid for a 12 volt one...
Holdens didn't go to 12 volts until the FE in late 1956..

You could probably pick up a good used solenoid cheap of someone on here... or at a swap meet...

its best if you can keep Your car tuned so it starts first time...

If You are going to take the engine out..
You could put the 200mm clutch and flywheel in from a 12 volt
that would also fix the problem...

cheers

LEE

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

Matt Ryan Fahrvergnugen

890 posts · joined Jan 2006 · 11 Sep 2009, 9:03 am

#734576

Yes,

Lee is right, FE 1956 to EH 1963 are the models that will have the right 12volt solenoid for the early VW 6volt starter motor.

If You are going to take the engine out.. You could put the 200mm clutch and flywheel in from a 12 volt that would also fix the problem...

And a 12volt starter motor and grind the bellhousing to suit the bigger flywheel.

Regards,

Matt.

http://portvwforum.freeforums.org

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 11 Sep 2009, 11:42 am

#734596

from memory 12 volt flywheels also need machining out to fit a 6 volt crank

djnee Officially Full-On Dubber

341 posts · joined Mar 2009 · 11 Sep 2009, 12:39 pm

#734604

Thanks for your help guys!!

OK....whilst sorting the pushrod tubes out today i had a gander at the starter and its deffo got this solenoid

So can i confirm that i now need to find an early 12volt Holden Bosch solenoid?

Any ideas where to get one? I guess wreckers yards?

It May Never End

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 11 Sep 2009, 1:43 pm

#734615

Joel wrote:from memory 12 volt flywheels also need machining out to fit a 6 volt crank

not much really...
and You can actually machine it out with the 200mm flywheel
and ring gear...
Just turn the engine by hand as You bolt it together...

Many people have done it this way...

or an angle grinder... I remember seeing it marked out how much needed grinding out, and its very little...
and not all the way round...

cheers

LEE

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

Matt Ryan Fahrvergnugen

890 posts · joined Jan 2006 · 11 Sep 2009, 2:08 pm

#734620

djnee wrote:Thanks for your help guys!!

OK....whilst sorting the pushrod tubes out today i had a gander at the starter and its deffo got this solenoid

So can i confirm that i now need to find an early 12volt Holden Bosch solenoid?

Any ideas where to get one? I guess wreckers yards?

Confirmed,

Print the picture and take it with you. You might also try some old school auto electricians (the kind whose premises look like they've been around for years)

also try Holden clubs or websites.

Regards,

Matt.

http://portvwforum.freeforums.org

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 11 Sep 2009, 7:28 pm

#734681

68AutoBug wrote:
Joel wrote:from memory 12 volt flywheels also need machining out to fit a 6 volt crank
not much really...
and You can actually machine it out with the 200mm flywheel
and ring gear...
Just turn the engine by hand as You bolt it together...

Many people have done it this way...

or an angle grinder... I remember seeing it marked out how much needed grinding out, and its very little...
and not all the way round...

cheers

LEE

nah, what i mean is the flange on the flywheel that bolts to the crank needs machining.
been to long since ive played with 6 volt engines but if i recall the center needed opening out but i'm fairly sure its only the engines that uses paper gaskets not the later O ring in the flywheel style