Hi,
Still putting my '73 fasty back together after going through everything.
I have replaced the front wheel bearings as well as had the callipers re-built, and a general clean up of the front end.
On re-assembly the disc does not sit in the centre of the calliper.
The callipers were re-built at a brake shop, but I can't see how wrong assembly could cause the problem, and the mount face on the calliper and front end are nice and clean.
I have double checked the bearings are the same size (width) as the ones removed, and ensured the bearings are fully home inside hte hub, as well as going all the way onto the axle.
With everything checked and installed, the disc has ~1mm clearence on the outside to the calliper, and ~8mm on the inside.
The strange thing is it's identical on both sides.
Has anyone seen this before, and any hints on what could cause the misalignment?
Thanks for your help.
Are you absolutely sure you have pressed the cups fully home on the inner bearing.
DH
Yep,
That's the first thing I thought it might be. Spent a full afternoon trying to find why.
With the bearing I even measured the depth to the stop in the disc and bearing width, and measured how deep it was pressed in to be absolutely sure there was no burr etc holding it out a bit. It's a long way out though, so I thought any problem would be easy to find.
maybe the grease seal on the inside of the hub is holding it up?
Andy wrote:Hi,
Still putting my '73 fasty back together after going through everything.
I have replaced the front wheel bearings as well as had the callipers re-built, and a general clean up of the front end.
On re-assembly the disc does not sit in the centre of the calliper.
The callipers were re-built at a brake shop, but I can't see how wrong assembly could cause the problem, and the mount face on the calliper and front end are nice and clean.
I have double checked the bearings are the same size (width) as the ones removed, and ensured the bearings are fully home inside hte hub, as well as going all the way onto the axle.
With everything checked and installed, the disc has ~1mm clearence on the outside to the calliper, and ~8mm on the inside.
The strange thing is it's identical on both sides.
Has anyone seen this before, and any hints on what could cause the misalignment?
Thanks for your help.
Hi Andy
the thickness of the bearings won't tell You if they are correct of not...
the bearing numbers need to be the SAME as what came out of them...
the cups can be the same thickness but still be different..
and non metric cups & cones can be matched with other Cups or Cones...
but on re-reading Your description.. again
do You mean the brake pads have different gaps??
between the disc and the brake pads??
any chance of a photo...??
if the bearings are seated OK..
and the wheels spin OK...
once you apply the brakes... the pads will fill the gaps...
as disc brake calipers are self adjusting...
I've never really taken any notice of the gaps as the pads close up as soon as the brakes are applied..
whether the gaps were equal to start with... I don't know...
cheers
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
When the place "" over hauled the calipers "" did they make sure both pistions were removed and free traveling
maybe one is stuck and they didnt remove it
did u get back the your origional calipers
vw54 wrote:When the place "" over hauled the calipers "" did they make sure both pistions were removed and free traveling
maybe one is stuck and they didnt remove it
did u get back the your original calipers
thats hard to believe...
thats what brake places do....
they pull them apart and overhaul the calipers...
stuck pistons should be their speciallty..!!
IMHO LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
Hi
Is the split in calliper lining up with centre of the disk or are you using the position position as a reference?
Steve
Are they a sliding calipers with one piston or do they have two pistons, one on each pad. If they are the sliding style caliper then you can just even it up yourself
Thanks for that, I did try installing them with the seal removed, no change
🙁
cesiumfrog wrote:maybe the grease seal on the inside of the hub is holding it up?
Thanks Dave, they are a reputable joint, and have done all of my brakes for last 5-10 years. Yes I got originals back, and all pistons move freely (they were free when I put the min for re-build also)
Just to answer a few other questions, the callipers are fixed, one piston each side. Yes the pistons will balance up the difference, but when I need to fit new pads, I don;t think it will fit on one side.
The gap I'm looking at is between the disc and calliper itself. I will get a pic soon.
Lee, what I measured was the thickness of hte assembled bearing, so the distance between the two faces that sit against axle and hub. Brearings came out of a kit for VW's, but I will check the numbers.
Different gaps are to inside of calliper, not pads.
Lee, Dave has a valid point though, type 3 callpiers are a little more complicated than older style VW callipers, so I'm sure plenty of places would take short cuts if they could!!! I always double check everything is good when I get them back.
Thanks again for the help.
vw54 wrote:When the place "" over hauled the calipers "" did they make sure both pistions were removed and free traveling
maybe one is stuck and they didnt remove it
did u get back the your origional calipers
where does the disk sit in accordance with the caliper 'gap'?
too far out, or inward towards the centre of the car?
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
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I carnt remember is there a spacer on the stub axle or is it fixed ???
did you leave this off
vw54 wrote:I carnt remember is there a spacer on the stub axle or is it fixed ???
did you leave this off
Maybe this'll help. Did you put item 54 on?? Maybe on back to front and the radius on the stub is against a sharp edge rather than a chamfer.
DH
Item 54 is the oil seal.
Late stubs have a one piece seal ring with the stub.
But YES, some replacement bearings do not have a large enough radius
to clear the radius on the stub axle.(even with the correct part number.
westi wrote:That's mad Alan.
item 54 what a coincidence
dangerous wrote:Item 54 is the oil seal.
Late stubs have a one piece seal ring with the stub.
But YES, some replacement bearings do not have a large enough radius
to clear the radius on the stub axle.(even with the correct part number.
I should have looked at the parts list on the other side of the page Dave!! Still half asleep. Haven't had a disk brake one since 2000 and the memory has dimmed on the front setup!
By the way, did you get the new milling machine?
DH
Hey,
Thanks again for all the help. Checked the bearings, and yes they have a large enough radius to sit flat.
I think I will pull it all out again on the week end, maybe there is a burr either on the axle of in the hub I have missed that stops it sitting as far home as they should. The discs are near the end of there life, so most likely have been on/off a few times and had bearings replaced a few times also, so anything is possible,
I have tried over tightening the bearings a little, but that's not enough to make it move.
Hi
Your able to get the adjuster on, I think that rules out the bearings not seating correctly.
Steve
its been a long time since I had a late model type 3
I think the calipers and pads were different...
are they ATE brand??
Sounds like the bearings are the problem...
tightening the axle nut usually seats the bearings OK
You said the bearings were in a kit..
I was going to ask whether the cups and cones were in the same packet/box? like LM11749/10 a common bearing kit.
not sure whether you have L45449 - L45410 cups & cones..
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
Guys
The adjuster nut, how much thread should stick out of the adjuster nut, that would be a quick way for him to check if its the bearings, if they are seated correctly then the adjuster nut should be roughly the same on every model. I know they are cast items and will vary a little, but shouldn't be that much that he couldn't check that way.
It really couldnt be the seal or an incorrect bearing, think about this, if you put on the seal and then the disc and dont get the seal into the disc, then it will move the whole disc assembly out by the thickness of the seal, that way the adjuster nut would only be half on.
Andy, are you sure the bearing cups are fully driven home, some of em do take a heavy hand to get in, if the cup isnt home then that could be an issue. Then when you assemble, are you putting the inner bearing in place and then fitting the seal to the disc, then pushing it home. Another thing I would try is unbolting the dust cover and fitting the disc and seal on and seeing if the seal is running where it should be, probably even a little wear ring where the old seal was running. If that is all the way home and you have thread poking out of your adjuster nut then it would have to be in the calipers. I doubt if the bearings had a different offset on one and the other had the exact amount of offset but the other way, doesnt seem possible.
A quick fix would be to just space your caliper with some washers, but would only do that if I really knew the bearings and disc where correct, If the stuff come off then it should go back on hey.
Trev
Lee,
Yes '73 type 3 had larger callipers and pads, mine are still ATE.
Bearings are a kit assembled at a local bearing shop, so bearings are koyo and ntn. (I bought them years ago and never used them)
Thanks for the numbers, I will check.
Trev,
The nut seems to go mostly. I will have to get some pictures up to help explain it all. They are only out by ~3mm, so I guess enough to see on the nut engagement.
Hi
Do You think the calipers had been machined??
only other thing is if one of the bearing cups had gone off centre
but You can usually see that
and hear it when they hit home...
I doubt if they could go 3mm off centre....
so, are You saying the calipers are too far away from the disc?
a diagram would really help here.... lol
Lee
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
Andy
did u work out what was wrong with yet ???
Hey all, sorry for the delay in replying, been busy at work.
I have taken a heap of photo's I will get up soon, and have had the discs on and off a number of times measureing, checking, even re-fitted old bearings!!
It all came back to the same issue.
What my thoughts now are the discs must not be original ot a '73.
I have a few old discs I will drag out and measure up to see if there is a difference in the offset on the disc for a '73. I know callipers and pads are different to earlier models, so I guess the discs could be as well.
Lee, callpiers certainly don;t look machined, and I measured everything to ensure they go fully home. With the old bearings installed the problem is still there.
Thanks again for all your help!
The discs are different on earlier to later models from memory....
tssnq.com.au
OK,
Still no closer to getting this one sorted.
Finally got around to looking at some old parts lying around. As best I can tell the discs are the same for a '71, '73 type 3 and also the same as a '73 beetle.
That is measuing diameter and distance from the disc to the face the wheel bolts to. I did not bother measuring where the bearing sits in all.
The only thing that was different for all of these cars was the beetle had a slightly smaller callipers!
I did not measure calliper offsets though.
I guess I will find out when I fit new discs as the current ones are close to minimum thichness.
All type 1 and 3 discs are the same.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
All type 1 and 3 discs are the same.
yep all same something must be in arse bout face
OK, I'll have to pull it all out again 🙁
Am working hard on the motor at the moment, so this is on hold currently.
