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Best aircooled car VW ever made?

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68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#786599
ratty 63 wrote:just have to vote for the 411 - just so far ahead of their time. Learned to drive in my parents '69 411....

Of course, 'best' is not necessarily referring to looks is it? 😉

Having owned Beetles and Kombis the choice was far from easy 😀

R 🙂
You were lucky to have a drive in a 411...
a very rare car in Australia..

I prefer the 412... with the twin headlamps...
very nice...

KDF was really Volkswagen... just another name...

Beetles were well ahead of their time in the 50s...
most cars in the 50's [and before] needed an engine decoke frequently, and most didn't make it to 100,000miles..
VW used to give out 100,000 miles medals or badges to people who had reached 100,000 in their Beetle...
but it soon got too common so VW stopped their medals..

so, in the 70's Beetles were really past their prime...
but still had a big following...

LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

ancientbugger Custom Title Time!

1,986 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#786630
You could say the Golf was just copy of the mini, i.e. front engined transverse driving the front wheels. The K70 also looks like a squared off NSU Ro80 a really nice car to drive but a very unreliable rotary, I believe the engines only lasted about two or three years then there was a few companies around (in the UK) putting the Ford V4s into them. Funny this poll is showing the 1303 out in front I wouldn't have expected that.

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 ·

#786632
ancientbugger wrote:Funny this poll is showing the 1303 out in front I wouldn't have expected that.
My thoughts exactly.
Lbugs have always been the black sheep of the bug family especially when you talk to alot of the old timers who are allergic to technology
I think all that has started to change though with advent of the germanlook scene.
95% of the serious build GLs are all Lbugs for obvious reasons

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 ·

#786637
68AutoBug wrote:You were lucky to have a drive in a 411...
a very rare car in Australia..

I prefer the 412... with the twin headlamps...
very nice...


LEE
Funny you should say that Lee - I have driven 3 411's now, one of each body type (2 door sedan, 4 door sedan and the (3 door) station wagon). The wagon was an auto too. I, personally find the more curved front of the 411 more appealing than the squarer front of the 412 - and I prefer the single oval shaped headlights... perhaps its just because that is what I grew up with.

Wouldn't say no to owning either model though....actually, thinking about it, there isn't a VW model that I would say no to! 😀

R 🙂
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

beetleboyjeff Custom Title Time!

1,790 posts · joined Feb 2009 ·

#786705
Funny this poll is showing the 1303 out in front I wouldn't have expected that.


I was a bit surprised too. I did actually vote for the '76 (have wanted one since 76), but was torn between that and the L bug (which is what I have now). I have always liked the look of the supers since they first came out - thought the more rounded shape (more pregnant I have heard it called) looked more "muscular" for want of a better term.
From your ole' mate Jeff

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#786720
ancientbugger wrote:You could say the Golf was just copy of the mini, i.e. front engined transverse driving the front wheels. The K70 also looks like a squared off NSU Ro80 a really nice car to drive but a very unreliable rotary, I believe the engines only lasted about two or three years then there was a few companies around (in the UK) putting the Ford V4s into them. Funny this poll is showing the 1303 out in front I wouldn't have expected that.
Yes, lots of seal problems with the Rotary engines...
Mazda ended up fixing them many years later..

I have always thought that the K70 looked like an RO80...
I also think they look VERY similar to the first Audis in Australia

AUDI 100 ???

LEE

PS: As 411s & 412 weren't sold in Australia...
You are VERY Lucky indeed.... LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 ·

#786723
Joel wrote:especially when you talk to alot of the old timers who are allergic to technology
Something that ever super owner has experienced..

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#786727
Yes,
The 1303 was the ugly duckling beetle...
and front struts and a real dashboard didn't get the nod from VW fanatics.. lol

I remember My brother in law buying a 1303 many years ago, and ringing Me to tell Me He had bought a beetle.. lol
a 1975 beetle... YIKES...

the type 3 was also a great car...
torsion bars front and back... YES...

LEE

PS: after seeing a 4 door 411 in Newcastle in the late 60s..
that is what I always wanted... a 4 door VW... lol... Lee




beetleboyjeff wrote:
Funny this poll is showing the 1303 out in front I wouldn't have expected that.


I was a bit surprised too. I did actually vote for the '76 (have wanted one since 76), but was torn between that and the L bug (which is what I have now). I have always liked the look of the supers since they first came out - thought the more rounded shape (more pregnant I have heard it called) looked more "muscular" for want of a better term.
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#786764
Lee, Rodeos, isuzus and a variety of other cars have torsion bars. Torsion bars are not the problem, it's the trailing arm front end in non-strut cars that is the issue. It has real limitations. For example, KL stuff is next to impossible to get more than 1deg of neg camber. Also, the roll center for a VW beam is ON THE GROUND, while the roll centre for a swingaxle rear end is in the air almost a foot up. Add a rear mount engine and the back inside corner of the car can't help but lift nastily in turns. Even with IRS you still see this happening.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#786776
Interesting Pete..

I really didn't mean the torsion bars themselves... lol

and OK on the trailing arms...

How much negative camber is Ok for the front using the aftermarket camber adjusters on ball joint front ends..?

although when the camber adjusters are moved the castor also is moved...

LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

Andy Andy\'s Adventures

2,820 posts · joined Nov 2002 ·

#786786
412 all the way for me, most technology put into and aircooled VW and great power and economy by VW standards (but not compared to other cars of the era).

If I had to choose on looks it would be the SP2 thanks!

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#786812
Andy wrote:412 all the way for me,
TRAITOR😘
tssnq.com.au

Dyno Officially Full-On Dubber

279 posts · joined May 2005 ·

#787367
The 412LS is by far the fastest car out of the lot. The LS had the 1800 high comp porsche 914 motor with twin 40 solexes from the factory. It had more grunt than the LE(fuel injected) too. They designed out the ugliness of the front and rear end on the 412 too, giving it a longer "shark "nose. The option list was fairly impressive too(typical of all German built VW's)... diamond velour interior, eberspacher with timer(get into a pre warmed car every cold morning!!), steel sliding sunroof, fogs, demisters, air con, tow bar, auto trans to name a few. they had Mcpherson struts up the front and coil spring IRS in the rear. Entire floorpan design is strikingly similar to a 911. HEAPS of room, and you could have a bath under the bonnet as the trunk is huge!! They were available in a 2 door, 4 door and wagon.

Dyno Officially Full-On Dubber

279 posts · joined May 2005 ·

#787368
Andy wrote:412 all the way for me, most technology put into and aircooled VW and great power and economy by VW standards (but not compared to other cars of the era).

If I had to choose on looks it would be the SP2 thanks!
so 165kmhr wasn't ok for 1972?

ancientbugger Custom Title Time!

1,986 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#787503
I remember when Porsche were upgrading the 911 (this was I think in the mid 70's) and put I think McPherson front suspension on but there was such an outcry that they had to come back with a new model with torsion bar. Morris Marinas had torsion bar front suspension but they were longitudinal.....so did Tiger tanks👍

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#787669
stupid purists, all the WRC cars are strut all round. I read a suspension guru describing modern struts as an 'artform'. SOOO much better than a beam front.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

Andy Andy\'s Adventures

2,820 posts · joined Nov 2002 ·

#792162
VW were selling the 411/412 as an upmarket car. It was priced against a lot of cars that had more power, better features, less noise etc.
The 2L jumped to ~100HP for the last of the 412's, still well behind cars in the market they targeted.

The 411's, 412's were excellent compared to other VW's, but the market judged them against other cars in the market. Add to that almost universal condemnation from the press and these gret cars just never did as well as they could have done.
Dyno wrote:
Andy wrote:412 all the way for me, most technology put into and aircooled VW and great power and economy by VW standards (but not compared to other cars of the era).

If I had to choose on looks it would be the SP2 thanks!
so 165kmhr wasn't ok for 1972?

Andy Andy\'s Adventures

2,820 posts · joined Nov 2002 ·

#792164
When it comes to technology people often forget other features VW implemented such as energy absobing front ends (especially in the kombi and 411/412), colapsing steering columns, fuel injection etc. There's a lot of innovation in VW's besides motors and suspension
pete wood wrote:
silver wrote:Scwimmenwagen
well technically, they aren't actually a VW. They were made by KDF.

Re the strut front bugs and the 411, by the time they'd been manufacturered, they almost 'with the times'. Remember the datto 1600/510 had a very similar setup (except OHC, but not crossflow head) but was made about 5 years earlier. The real 'ahead of it's time' VW for the 70s was the golf. The passat was ok too. Shame all the aussie ones rusted out so badly.
Beetles have never really been 'ahead of their time', rather just a completely out of the box solution to a range different problems. Sum being greater than it's parts and all that gestalt stuff.... and it's got a great shape too. 😎

Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds

2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#792193
NSU designed the Ro80 - Ro stands for 'Rotary' (Wankel) and the first production version produced 80 hp (although it was soon upgraded to 115 hp). It was made from 1967 to 1977. Yes it initially suffered from poor rotor sealing, but ferrotic seals fixed the problem from 1970-on. But by then NSU was crippled by warranty problems and poor reputation (early Ro80s were very thirsty too) and Volkswagen bought them in 1969. The Ro80 was advnanced in other ways apart from its Wankel engine - it had four-wheel disc brakes, with the front ones inboard to reduce insprung weight. It had MacPherson strut front suspension and trailing arm rear, and power-assisted rack and pinion steering. It had a Fichtel & Sachs three-speed semi-auto gearbox, and futuristic low-drag styling (CD 0.355). LNC Industries imported them into Australia from 1970-72. The Ro80 was the last model to be badged as an NSU - when production ceased in 1977, the NSU name disappeared.

NSU also designed the K70 - K stands for 'kolben', the German word for 'piston' as it was a conventional in-line four. It produced 70 hp. NSU was just getting ready to release it in 1969 when the company was taken over by Volkswagen (who merged NSU into their Audi subsidiary). VW took over the K70 design and it was sold as a Volkswagen until production ended in 1974. It was a good car but was disadvantaged by not sharing any components with any other VW/Audi/NSU model, which increased costs. VW also never developed 2-door, wagon or coupe versions, and concentrated on the Audi-based Passat/Golf family instead.

A few people have mentioned VW Type 4s (411, 412) with 2-litre engines - wrong. The Type 4 was never made with a 2-litre engine; only the 1700 and 1800. The 2-litre was only used in the Porsche 914, and later the Transporter.

BTW, KdF only funded the construction of the Wolfsburg factory; the vehicles themselves were still made by Volkswagenwerk. The normal KdF logo was a swastika surrounded by a gear tooth; this was often modified to a VW symbol with a gear tooth.

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Barnabie Officially Full-On Dubber

257 posts · joined Jun 2010 ·

#792604
Favourite VW huh?

Bit hard to choose just one - kinda like trying to choose a favourite when watching Miss Universe Pageant 😂

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#792667
ancientbugger wrote:Morris Marinas had torsion bar front suspension but they were longitudinal.....so did Tiger tanks👍


and they both lasted about 3 years... lol

How come all the pommy cars didn't last long??

Morris 1100 -austin 1800 - Morris 1500 OHC..

then the aussie made Marinas....

what was lacking??? and all those minis...??

LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

bnicho Wolfsburg Wizard

436 posts · joined Feb 2009 ·

#792799
I voted 1303 and was also surprised to see it on top.

I like practicality and the 1303 is the best Beetle in that regard. The strut front end means better handling and a useful increase in boot space. I prefer the curved screen because it doesn't feel like you have your nose buried in it. I also think the 1303 dash gives the Beetle a more modern feel and is more "user friendly".

For me, the 1303 is the ultimate evolution of the Beetle. But if I could have a split beetle as well, I'd be a happy man. 😀

Pommy cars, yes many of them did not last. Partly because of poor build quality and partly because of the lack of enthusiast following. 1100's and 1800's were really quite a good drive for their time, but they are a bit ugly. For some years more Morris 1100's were sold in Aus than Minis. Yet there are thousands more Minis on Aussie roads, because the following is there. I'm in the Vic Mini Club and we have 700+ paid up members alone. The NSW club is even larger I think.

Mk1 Golfs are good cars, and I'd quite happily drive one. But I find them a little bland - they don't enthuse me the way a Mini or a air-cooled Beetle does.

Cheers,
Brett Nicholson
Melbourne, Victoria
1974 VW Superbug L - Olive 😎
1971 Morris Mini Moke - Mopoke
1966 Austin Mini - Audrey
1965 Morris Mini Traveller - Trixie
2007 Land Rover Freelander 2
2009 Nissan Pathfinder

amazeer Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,029 posts · joined Nov 2005 ·

#792889
68AutoBug wrote:PS: after seeing a 4 door 411 in Newcastle in the late 60s..
that is what I always wanted... a 4 door VW... lol... Lee
Oh cmon. Where are the kombis on this list.

I'll take a 77 deluxe micro in green/white. Thats 4 freakin big doors. Have you ever driven a 70's van from another car maker? Kombis are light years in front of the nissan/datsun/toyota offerings. They only have one quibbel. The engine in the back was a bastard for tradies as it took up a lot of cargo space. For non tradies it meant that you didnt have that raoring engine undeneath your butt.👍

zayus Wolfsburg Wizard

437 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#799535
ancientbugger wrote:I remember when Porsche were upgrading the 911 (this was I think in the mid 70's) and put I think McPherson front suspension on but there was such an outcry that they had to come back with a new model with torsion bar.
Hey Hey,

Are you thinking of the '60's, when production of the 356 ceased, and production of the 911 commenced? 🙂

The 911 has always had a Macpherson strut front end.

Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds

2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#799548
True, they were Macpherson strut (in geometric layout), but the struts were not the spring medium (like they are with Superbugs and their coils). Early 911s used longitudinal torsion bars instead. They didn't move to coil strut fronts (and coil rears) until the 964 redesign in 1990.

http://books.google.com/books?id=4-ByjhODBukC&pg=PA188#v=onepage&q&f=false

The 'best' air-cooled VW? A bit like asking what is the 'best' pizza topping combo. We all have our different favourites - and different favourites on different days!

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68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#799551
bnicho wrote:I voted 1303 and was also surprised to see it on top.

I like practicality and the 1303 is the best Beetle in that regard. The strut front end means better handling and a useful increase in boot space. I prefer the curved screen because it doesn't feel like you have your nose buried in it. I also think the 1303 dash gives the Beetle a more modern feel and is more "user friendly".

For me, the 1303 is the ultimate evolution of the Beetle. But if I could have a split beetle as well, I'd be a happy man. 😀

Pommy cars, yes many of them did not last. Partly because of poor build quality and partly because of the lack of enthusiast following. 1100's and 1800's were really quite a good drive for their time, but they are a bit ugly. For some years more Morris 1100's were sold in Aus than Minis. Yet there are thousands more Minis on Aussie roads, because the following is there. I'm in the Vic Mini Club and we have 700+ paid up members alone. The NSW club is even larger I think.

Mk1 Golfs are good cars, and I'd quite happily drive one. But I find them a little bland - they don't enthuse me the way a Mini or a air-cooled Beetle does.

Cheers,
Hi
the 1303 beetle wasn't liked by purist beetle owners in Australia.. much different to the USA where they are the most common beetles....

My father in Law had a MINI traveller... for many years...

the last mini made in AUstralia is in a Museum in South Australia [ I think that's where I saw it. lol]

1100, 1800, 1500 OHC etc.. they all seemed to disappear rather quickly??? but I wasn't into BMC-Leyland really...

I can tell the difference to a UK made mini though... saw one at a show in Newcastle a few years ago.. and I said to the owner.. its a UK mini... He said No, but He had bought all the bits from the UK.... lol

I did see an 1800 ute recently and a sedan also... lol

never ever see the 6 cylinder front drive Aussie made Leylands

a local had a Tasman and fitted air con to it ... He crashed it and bought the one with 4 rectangular headlamps...
He couldn't fit air con to it because of the extra headlamps
lol

cheers

LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

bnicho Wolfsburg Wizard

436 posts · joined Feb 2009 ·

#799560
68AutoBug wrote:I can tell the difference to a UK made mini though... saw one at a show in Newcastle a few years ago.. and I said to the owner.. its a UK mini... He said No, but He had bought all the bits from the UK.... lol
It's probably an Aussie Mini in chassis number only, if you get my drift. Everything has been replaced around an all-important section of the inner guard...

Yes, the last Mini resides in the Birdwood museum. The last Moke was bought new by Derryn Hinch and not looked after very well. It was later sold by Shannons to a collector. I don't know where that car is now.

What happened to the Traveller your father-in-law had? I have one too, but they are very rare.

Minis are great fun to thrash around in, but the suspension is pretty harsh and the engines need to be revved.

Olive (my L Bug) is not as much fun to thrash through the curves as a Mini, but has a more comfortable ride and is more relaxed on a long highway drive.

Cheers,
Brett Nicholson
Melbourne, Victoria
1974 VW Superbug L - Olive 😎
1971 Morris Mini Moke - Mopoke
1966 Austin Mini - Audrey
1965 Morris Mini Traveller - Trixie
2007 Land Rover Freelander 2
2009 Nissan Pathfinder

zayus Wolfsburg Wizard

437 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#799723
Phil74Camper wrote:True, they were Macpherson strut (in geometric layout), but the struts were not the spring medium (like they are with Superbugs and their coils). Early 911s used longitudinal torsion bars instead. They didn't move to coil strut fronts (and coil rears) until the 964 redesign in 1990.
Does that mean the VW Superbug had a more advanced front end than a 911? 🙂

No.

It's ridulous to think, that a mid '70's Superbug was superior in any way to a mid '70's 911!

Favourite Beetle of all time. My head says the 1969 1500, but my heart, says a 1952 Kabriolett.

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