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LWB Vs SWB

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abba Slammed & Awesome Dubber

75 posts · joined Jun 2009 ·

#804485
When Bruce Meyers made the first Manx he made it a SWB . And since then the fashon was to follow the trend. Why did he make a SWB ? Are they better handling in the sand/mud or road? Does the shorter version weigh much less ? Or just look better ? If they are better at handling why dont they use them more often in hillclimbs etc ? Can a LWB buggy handle as well or better ? What are your thoughts ?

amazeer Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,029 posts · joined Nov 2005 ·

#804490
Short wheelbase buggies look a lot better in my eyes

Would turn better to an extent. But when it does let go it will let go i a more dramatic fashion. But that wouldnt have been the desired purpose for them so I doubt it would have been a consideration. More likely to e that a shorter wheelbase can go over a sharper apex sand dune.

bajachris88 The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 6

6,661 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·

#804540
Surely that would have been the main benefit...

its the same for the positives and negatives of lwb vs swb 4x4's.

Another plus would be that it would lower the weight a little, but that wouldn't be the bulk of the intention.
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abba Slammed & Awesome Dubber

75 posts · joined Jun 2009 ·

#804597
amazeer wrote:Short wheelbase buggies look a lot better in my eyes

Would turn better to an extent. But when it does let go it will let go i a more dramatic fashion. But that wouldnt have been the desired purpose for them so I doubt it would have been a consideration. More likely to e that a shorter wheelbase can go over a sharper apex sand dune.
I agree with the above and it makes sence.
I have never driven a LWB on road or beach and Im interested in others opinions on how they handle . Guys like Sharpbuit have said that their buggies handle great on and off road. Im sure most dont drive their buggies to their potential to notice the difference. But from what i've seen the LWB buggies can keep up with the SWB buggies. It seems the extra money and effort that goes into making the SWB is really just about the look ??

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#804615
Hi Abba,
gonna try and answer your questions without an essay. Sorry if it ends up as one.

1. SWB pan was for dune apexes like Amazeer said. That idea is nearly 50 years old now though.

2. The secret of the buggy is the engine over/behind the rear wheels. It's also it's achilies heal for SWB and LWB cars alike. It causes understeer and bad front/rear weight distribution. More so in SWB cars.

3. Buggies generally suck at tight tarmac events for reason No.2. In SWB cars this is made worse due to the shortening messing up the ackerman angle in the steering and lessening the weight on the front wheels.

4. Add to this the pendulum motion that rear motor cars get and the shorter the wheel base the worse it gets. When the back lets go, it really lets go and the car can literally do a 360deg spin very easily. Again, SWB cars suffer this worse. Find a vid of hel70y at Valla and you'll see what I mean.

5. No car handles "great" on and off the road. They will do one well and the other not so well. The better they are in one situation, the worse they will be in the other. Most have a natural advantage for one or the other, in this case, it's offroad for buggies. Which is why people still racing this structure of vehicle offroad.

6. LWB tend to be roomier, more stable at speed (freeway/offroad) but heavier. SWB tend to be smaller, more compact and lighter, but twitchier. People want back seats and more room so people are tending to build more LWB cars these days... and the offroad community in the states is heading towards longer/wider cars.

I hope this has helped you understand things a little better, but I would say, choosing SWB or LWB for looks is like choosing underground waterpiping based on the colours it comes in. It's true that Bruce planned some aesthetics into the manx, but the whole car was primarily about practicalities. The same sort of practicalities that Suzuki built into the sierra, which is really the same sort of vehicle, just mass produced.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

shaihulud Custom Title Time!

1,448 posts · joined Nov 2005 ·

#804628
In an article called "Five Reasons Why Less is Better" in issue Volume 2. No 4 of the Manx Mania magazine, Bruce Meyers said.

1. Traction. When going up a hill an SWB has more weight over the rear driving wheels.

2. Less Weight. It's only a small weight reduction, but less is more, or as Colin Chapman of Lotus said, "Add lightness."

3. Turning radius. A SWB buggy has an amazingly small turning circle.

4. Belly clearance. Cresting dunes is better as previously explained.

5. Strength. A SWB pan is stronger.

6. Looks. An SWB buggy looks better than an LWB. That's subjective and I won't discuss it here.

7. Why 14 1/4 inches shorter? It keeps the shortening process simple and is just right. Look at an SWB pan and see where the welding is. It's the best fit that does the job.

Pete Wood is right about the twitchiness of an SWB buggy at speed. One day I wound the Manx SR up to the Imperial Ton (100 miles per hour) on a very good level road and it was getting very twitchy. It was holding the road very well, as it has a Porsche front for down force and a Kamm rear for aerodynamics. I had the power and revs for more, but it became just a bit too scary. I backed off and I doubt if I'll ever do it again.

ancientbugger Custom Title Time!

1,986 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#804638
Hey Pete, I don't know about 50 years old, go back to the Schwimmwagen, that was built on a shortened wheelbase of 2000mm in what ,43? nearly 80 years ago!

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#804642
ancientbugger wrote:Hey Pete, I don't know about 50 years old, go back to the Schwimmwagen, that was built on a shortened wheelbase of 2000mm in what ,43? nearly 80 years ago!
My point exactly. Look at modern sand cars, they are lwb not short. In fact the best ones are even longer than a full length beetle pan. Long wheel base and wide track makes for a much more stable car at speed over corregations/ripples. Same goes for 4wds.

Re the weight over the back wheels, that is highly dependent on the angle and weight of the vehicle. SWB cars are also more prone to tipping end over end.

Bruces ideas were all well thought out for a cheap, light weight kit car (in fact it was the world's first kitcar) but the philosophy and thinking behind offroad cars has changed a lot in the last 40 years. A combination of improvements in tyres, drivetrain, available tooling/welding and 4wds has made a lot of the natural advantages the manx had obsolete. But just like lots of old school technology it can be fun, just realise it's been superceded and don't expect more of it than it can deliver.

p.s. for every one floorpan that was well shortened it seems like there was another 9 that were traversties. That's why they were outlawed in NSW for a while.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/