take the head off, either heli coil or weld and re tap.
Welding is the better option imo. also its not expensive, 20 buks maybe. Then tap it your self if you're confident or get them to do it while you are it.
oh and best to find someone that can and does weld heads in particular magnesium alloys. If they don't have much experience doing this kind of work, fine someone that can or heli coil if you can't.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
u don't need to take the head off
it can be Time sert repaired in sit_u
❗❗❗❗
The previous posters advise is Crazy
Brian wrote:u don't need to take the head off
it can be Time sert repaired in sit_u
I have had this done to my car
Timesert is the way to go
👍Futue te ipsum!!!
Hi
Helicoil as a last resort, Timeserts are way superior. If its # 1 or 3 you can do it in the car. I've seem too many Helicoils unscrew with the plug.
Steve
timeserts..hmm interesting. never seen them before? Still you can to take the head off otherwise bits of metal shavings will get in the cylinder.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
not if its done by a skilled person
Brian wrote:not if its done by a skilled person
As we know, the VW engine bay is far from mechanic friendly when it comes to repairs on the heads except a few things.
If you note the sequence of inserting a timesert, which is designed for hand fitting, not machine, it requires things to be still square to the sealing face of the plug hole.
From L to R
(a) Clean hole with drill provided.
(b) Counterbore hole for insert top flange
(c) Tap hole
(d) Screw in insert with threadflow tap/installation tool. This squeezes the bottom of the insert out into the wall of the tapped hole as the last couple of threads aren't fully formed.
Now, my thoughts on this is that no matter how skilled we are, there's a chance of getting out of square as well as dropping some shavings inside the combustion chamber when working inside the engine bay. At least the top tinware and the inlet manifold has to come off to give some sort of a professional repair using timeserts in this situation.
Another problem with Timeserts in cramped situations is that the tap supplied is barely an intermediate which makes it difficult to start square.
Note: The ones shown are from a standard kit, not a sparkplug kit. see
http://www.timesert.com/html/sparkplug.html
The helicoil tap in a plug repair kit can have a pilot which is the original size thread to keep things square before the new size thread is tapped. You still have the danger of dropping the small tang into the combustion chamber when removing it from a Helicoil and of course it is stainless steel, not alloy!. In any case, a grease type of cutting lubricant in the flutes may trap most of the shavings preventing them dropping into the combustion chamber.
As for welding and re tapping, there's more to it than a splatter of weld and re-tapping. The hole has to re-drilled in the right place and then spotfaced and tapped which really means to do it correctly a milling machine is required................for 20 bucks??? I don't think so.
And lastly, I would think 2 or 4 would be easier to get to than 1 or 3
❗
DH
vernier68 wrote:hi, timeserts seem the way ahead, but as you say, keeping it all square would be a task. Ideal repair if the head was off.
unusual to see a drill with a square tang in the kit unless you drill it by hand with a ratchet tap wrench.
The original hole would act a a rough guide when drilling, but the tap is close on a plug or bottom tap.
i personally dont like helicoils, never used em on submarines.
Swarf can be an issue, load the flutes with some grease perhaps.
safest way is head off, timesert i think.
Welding and machining the head would be expensive, safer just buying a new head.
malc
Ex Navy or ADI???
Helicoils are a problem if:
(a) Plugs not sealing allowing carbon to track along the thread.
(b) Plugs not changed at normal intervals.
(c) Plug reach too long which allows carbon to build up on the last thread of the plug.
Any one of these user faults can pull a helicoil insert or in fact most inserts out of a head.
Remember Timeserts can't be cut to a shorter length otherwise the locking feature will be lost. If they are shortened, the driver can't fix them against the top flange tightly and the only way to lock them in is to stake the bottom with a punch. Each insert type can have a problem.
In any case, doing the repair with the head on can only be treated as a temporary fix as you can't see where the end of the insert is.
DH
1500S wrote:And lastly, I would think 2 or 4 would be easier to get to than 1 or 3 ❗
DH
Hi
When I worked in VW shop the owner of the shop fitted many Timeserts with the motor in place, 1 & 3 are easier because there is more room as body tapers down around 2 & 4, talking about Beetles in this case.
Type 4 motors were a pain as the plug thread runs across a valve face. It saved a people a lot of grief, imagine having your car booked in for a routine service and then being faced with the cost of having to have partial engine tear down or worse.
All care was taken to keep shavings out of the combustion chamber but anything left over would blown out when the motor ran, we made valve adjustments before the insert was done and the motor set on TDC. It was treated as a temporary repair but we never had any come back and most cars need new heads after a while anyway.
Timesert also made repair kits for Solex carbs which were very useful when the heavy idle jets on Type 3 and Twin carb Kombis flogged out the idle jet hole.
Steve
I know that these fixes can be done and are done Steve but I can't help looking at things "the proper engineering way". Of course a customer wouldn't be happy with a bill for a partial rebuild when all they wanted was a plug changed. I know if I had the problem myself the engine would be out to do the job but in many cases with old VWs these days if the owner can't do most of the repairs themselves they wouldn't have a clue as to whether the job was done right or not. Somewhere down the track the engine will have some other problem and indeed new heads will be recommended so the old rough repair wouldn't be seen by the owner. In the end, use whatever insert is the favourite choice but in the long run they all work well if used as they were designed.
Yes, I do know that Timesert states that the repair is done without the removal of the head but I just don't like bits of metal floating around in the combustion chamber regardless of how many strokes it doesn't take to clear it.
🙅
The proper sparkplug Timesert taps are similar to the Helicoil ones by having the original plug thread pilot. The ones I posted in the previous post are the standard inserts from the general engineering kit.
For ref.:
http://www.timesert.com/html/sparkplug.html
A bit of an expensive outlay for home uses unless you plan on doing plenty of heads!
Just looking at it, what car would use a 1/4"-32 thread.
😂
DH
Maybe a model engine like used in radio controled cars boats and planes, maybe
I dream of a day when a chicken can cross a road without being asked for it's motive!
donn wrote:Maybe a model engine like used in radio controled cars boats and planes, maybe
Yep! Off topic a bit but 1/4" UNEF. Couldn't get the timeserts when I needed some so went with another lifetime of Helicoils. Haven't got the problem with carbon buildup using methanol/nitro methane/castor oil so never have the problem of them coming out !!
DH
Just checked back over all my posts and then checked with the misses, have proved my suspicion that this is the first time I have ever been correct. 😂 Just a question off topic, if a fella says something while his wife is outa hearing range, is he still wrong. Just wonderin. 🙅
I dream of a day when a chicken can cross a road without being asked for it's motive!
donn wrote:Just checked back over all my posts and then checked with the misses, have proved my suspicion that this is the first time I have ever been correct. 😂 Just a question off topic, if a fella says something while his wife is outa hearing range, is he still wrong. Just wonderin. 🙅
Always work on the principle of "not very often I'm wrong but I'm right again. I thought I was wrong once but it was just an error of judgement"
😂
DH
what method was he planing to use?
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
really? that much to do a heli coil. lol my local engineer welded, re cut and taped a ford laser thread for 75 I think. was a few years ago.
That engineer is great. 10 buks per weld for heads.
I can get a ford e series head welded and machined between 70-100 buks.
And great job too. I get them machined by another guy in town though. 55 per machining.
He has a machine shop in his mechanic bussiess 😁
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
Helicoils are actually scarily expensive, as I found out last time I needed one. The helicoil 'kit' including the tap was something like $60 for a small one to do a sump plate bolt, so I can easily imagine spark plug ones being $80.
If you want to setup your kits while the A$ is good then get
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TIME-SERT-NEW-Spark-Plug-Kit-M14X1-25-Part-4412-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3eff8a65edQQitemZ270575232493QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools.
No inserts but this is the expensive part of the tool kit. For 10 inserts they want around 30 bucks plus postage.
With this in mind, no one should gripe at what an engineering place charges for doing what seems a small job! Quite an investment to have sitting on the shelf with an assortment of insert lengths to suit a number of vehicles.
DH
Looks like the tap isn't of great quality although it may be just the poor quality photo! Remember that the Time-sert design of insert requires a small counterbore for the head of the insert and also requires the tool to insert it as well as set it into position by forming the last couple of threads on the insert which actually locks it into position. Using a poor quality imitation may give more problems down the not too distant track. I know that others on here don't like helicoils (Recoil) but I've had them in engines since the 60s without any problems. My current engine has Helicoils in from rebuild 9 years back and certainly hasn't given any problems.
DH
I actually prefer Helicoil over a Timesert, they don't require as large a hole in the head, and you can shorten the coil and make a tool to deform the threads so the coil doesn't back out.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
As Matt said, the Helicoil insert should be at least 1/2 a thread below the surfaces. If a suitable punch is made to deform the alloy near where each end of the insert is the insert cannot screw any further in and can't back out.
Helicoil engineers say that this is actually not necessary and may damage the parent metal, however in the case of the VW head it should be ok.
" Free Running Inserts Helicoil
In the free state HeliCoil Inserts are greater in diameter than the tapped hole into which they are installed. In the assembly operation the torque applied to the HeliCoil tang reduces the diameter of the leading coil and permits it to enter the tapped thread. When the torque or rotation is stopped, the HeliCoil coils expand with a spring-like action anchoring the HeliCoil insert permanently in place against the tapped hole. No staking, locking, swaging, keying, nor interference fit is required to retain HeliCoil Inserts, thereby eliminating stress concentration in the parent material. The HeliCoil Insert automatically adjusts itself, radially and axially, to any expansion or contraction of the parent material."
DH
Yeah Dallas, I actually grind a taper into an old plug and use it to crimp the top thread.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
I thought I'd add that bit from Helicoil Matt. Too many non engineers on some forums have odd expert thoughts on some of these fixes. Even though I have a full Timesert kit from M4 to M12, I'm not about to spend $150 plus to get the ones for the plugs. The Helicoils have worked as designed for all these years so why change!
DH
Helicoils are Not suitable for alloy spark plug threads IMO
Matt ....The time sert uses the same size tap as the helicoil (almost) in fact the helicoil tap is slightly larger
I have fitted Time serts in the thread cut for a coil as a temp solution.
You can easily start em square as they have a std 14 thread on the end as a lead ❗
Also a face cutter is used to ensure the sealing surface is square with the new thread.
Often if you tighten up a plug that has a Heli -coil fitted the coil pops straight out . 😀
DH
that time sert you have shown is NOT the spark plug M14
I have never had to Drill the head to fit a time-sert (I have fitted dozens of them )
In fact they don't recommend or even supply a drill in the kit
So your fitting procedure and advise is plainly wrong 😵
johny rotten wrote:Helicoils are Not suitable for alloy spark plug threads IMO
Matt ....The time sert uses the same size tap as the helicoil (almost) in fact the helicoil tap is slightly larger
I have fitted Time serts in the thread cut for a coil as a temp solution.
You can easily start em square as they have a std 14 thread on the end as a lead ❗
Also a face cutter is used to ensure the sealing surface is square with the new thread.
Often if you tighten up a plug that has a Heli -coil fitted the coil pops straight out . 😀
I thought I made myself quite clear that the ones I had in the pic were a standard set, not a spark pug repair. See again.
I never go by IMO but by manufacturer's recommendations and Helicoil/Recoil inserts are recommended and widely used in the repair of alloy heads The insert cannot pop out when the plug is tightened. With Timeserts, there isn't a face cutter to make sure that the thread is square with the face. That is achieved with the use of the correct stepped tap, ie M14 x 1.25 stepped to Timesert thread.
DH
DH
you are quoting manufactures spec on a time sert that is NOT the one in question
very misleading
Also the timesert M14 spark plug repair DOES have a facing cutter I have one in my tool box
So before you go giving false and misleading advise to the kiddies on these pages
Check your facts
any one who fits a helicoil to a vw air cooled head is mad IMO
its obviously pointless trying to explain this to some 😵
I'm hearing ya Johny...
I thought that timeserts did have a face cutter, mine was purchased from Wurth in '94, but haven't used it in years since I honestly had more drama's than with Helicoil's fitted with the crimped thread method.
We'll have to just agree to disagree.
Why in your opinion is the Helicoil so bad for alloy heads?
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
johny rotten wrote:DH
you are quoting manufactures spec on a time sert that is NOT the one in question
very misleading
Also the timesert M14 spark plug repair DOES have a facing cutter I have one in my tool box
So before you go giving false and misleading advise to the kiddies on these pages
Check your facts
any one who fits a helicoil to a vw air cooled head is mad IMO
its obviously pointless trying to explain this to some 😵
The Timesert I am refering to is
http://www.timesert.com/html/sparkplug.html
It has:
(a) Stepped Tap
(b) Wrench
(c) Seat Cutter
(d) Insert Tool
The seat cutter cuts a small counterbore for the flange on the insert top to clear the contact face, not to square anything to the thread if the tap goes in out of square.
With this in mind I am not giving the kiddies or anyone else on the forum misinformation. I did explain back somewhere that thie pics were from a standard kit, the difference being it has a drill for cleaning out the hole and a standard type tap rather than the stepped one. Also, the standard Metric Coarse and Fine series of Timeserts doesn't hafe the M14 x 1.25 thread size. That one is great for stripped threads in places like our oil strainer studs. Standard helicoils aren't much good in that aplication.
Now Johnny ol' boy, as you have a Timesert tap for sparkplugs in your kit, can you measure the effective diameter of the tap so we can compare with Helicoil tap for size. For reference, the effective diameter of the M14 x 1.25 Helicoil tap measures 15.00mm.
Yes, sometimes it is hard explaining concepts to people.
😂
DH
Edit to remove useless photo
The seat cutter cuts a small counterbore for the flange on the insert top to clear the contact face, not to square anything to the thread
DH [/quote]
Wrong again
as I have already said THE SPARK PLUG SEAT CUTTER also cuts a face cut to seat the plug on , square to the hole .
Why show a pic of a cutter thats not related to spark plug repairs except that it is the same brand ??
now what part don't u understand
