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1500S Custom Title Time!

1,418 posts · joined Mar 2005 ·

#807084
johny rotten wrote:The seat cutter cuts a small counterbore for the flange on the insert top to clear the contact face, not to square anything to the thread

DH


Wrong again
as I have already said THE SPARK PLUG SEAT CUTTER also cuts a face cut to seat the plug on , square to the hole .
Why show a pic of a cutter thats not related to spark plug repairs except that it is the same brand ??
now what part don't u understand [/quote]

With this forum it's about helping one another. It would be simpler if we could all put a pic on to show what things do rather than just "wrong" with nothing getting clearer! After having a look at a sparkplug kit I sourced today, where the standard one has only the cutting edges for the counterbore and the larger diameter is squared off to give a depth stop for the insert flange, the plug one indeed has cutting edges to scrape a new seat for the washer face just to make sure. I've had time to look at the Timesert site so here it is for all to see.

See: http://www.timesert.com/html/howtosp.html

That pic from the ones who have a kit could have saved this long winded back and forth!

NOW! What is the efective diameter of the Timesert thread so we can compare it with the Helicoil tap?

and

What is the answer to Matt re the reason why Helicoils should never be used on aircooled engines remembering that Matt is a long time VW motor mechanic.

And now at least vlad01 can see what a Time-sert is. 😂

DH

johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber

366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#807088
Really
you had time to post all this false info ,

The pics you found time to post were also useless 🤪

as I already told you the tap from the Time sert is a tad smaller than the helicoil one

I can give you a measurement later

How many spark plug repairs have you DH done personally ❓

I am speaking from direct experience

Helicoils can hang through into the combustion chamber, they are not finished square at the ends ❗
they some times leak ,
they often come out with the plug and wreck the head
they promote cracking
They are easy to stuff up during install as there is no step on the tap to use as a lead

But they do seem OK in cast steel

johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber

366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#807091
Beware of the K and D inserts if thats what they are ??

even worse than helicoils

K and D inserts were common place in the VW repair industry 25 years back , I was hoping they were gone forever ..

johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber

366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#807107
I just checked his web page and they are the old type 🤪
I would not use em
find some one with a time sert
what area are u in ?

johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber

366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#807113
The plug will tighten up on the insert rather than the head , this will cause the insert to "stick" to the plug (this is a bad thing)
also the thread on the OD is a nasty one rendering your cylinder useless in a very short time
there must be someone with a timesert repair kit near to you .

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#807120
johny rotten wrote:Helicoils can hang through into the combustion chamber, they are not finished square at the ends ❗
they some times leak ,
they often come out with the plug and wreck the head
they promote cracking
They are easy to stuff up during install as there is no step on the tap to use as a lead

But they do seem OK in cast steel
Ok Johnny nice guy, look at your comments

Helicoils can hang through into the combustion chamber; Only if the installer fits the wrong length Helicoil

they are not finished square at the ends : Obviously, but If care is taken when installing a plug by starting by hand, this is a small price to pay

they some times leak : The plug washer is meant to do the sealing against the head, same with a Timesert

they often come out with the plug and wreck the head: If the thread gets crimped like Dallas and I suggested this is less likely with a Helicoil than a Timesert IMO, but none the less it's an issue with any of these repairs, but it is just that, a repair that is relatively cheap to get back on the road, noone said it's as good as a new head

they promote cracking : WTF there is no difference in the amount of material retained on your own admission

They are easy to stuff up during install as there is no step on the tap to use as a lead : And we're back to installer f*ck up...not the insert.



Show us your version of insert, the ones in the pic from George look like what I'd call a Timesert, but I'm happy to learn.



For the record, I'm on the Sunshine Coast, albeit close to an hour away from Coloundra, I have Helicoil's of different lengths in stock, I can often do the repair in car for under $100. 🙂
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber

366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#807144
Hey Matt

If you can't see any issues with helicoils go right ahead and fit em

I'll continue to do what I think is best and fit time-serts

I won't be adding any photos
😉

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#807178
I've had more issues with the large style insert wrecking heads than helicoils, so I'll continue to use Helicoils untill I see a better option. If you don't wish to share your obvious welth of info, why bother with this forum.....

I for one would be happy to see the 'correct' insert your recommending.

Have a nice day. 🙂
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

1500S Custom Title Time!

1,418 posts · joined Mar 2005 ·

#807380
Hi Matt. Back again after a few days away. Hope Malc has by now got that head fixed and back running. Time wise and cost wise it would have been better to drop in to you to have the insert fitted!

To answer a couple of Johny’s questions and for the history:

Yes, I have repaired quite a few Volkswagen heads. With owning VWs only from 1965 to 1979 as main transport with two Type 3s and continuing with one to 1984 there were a number of my own rebuilds and repairs coupled with work colleagues and mates along the way. Thread inserts in general? Thousands as It has been part of the last 30 years demonstrating the fitting and uses of them! It helps to have been in engineering for near 50 years as a Fitter/Machinist/Toolmaker. You don't have to rely on other trades to wreck your equipment These were mainly Helicoils although there were some inserts of thicker walls than timeserts which did decrease the head strength around the plug hole due to the larger tapped hole. That one was staked or swaged to keep them in.

Now, on looking back, I can’t find where I gave misleading info except that I used the standard set of Time-serts to show someone what they looked like with a bold note regarding the fact they were not the Plug set. I hadn’t come across the specific Time-sert plug kit but a pic showing the difference with the integral seat/counterbore cutter would have cleared that up. Yes, I do have some time to post photos. Pictures do speak for themselves and explain much more than just text. It’s a pity a few more wouldn’t do the same!

FACTS.

As there has been no reply on the measured difference between the Time-sert tap and Helicoil tap may I add that first.

S.T.I Basic P.D. = Nominal Thread O.D (Basic Major Dia.) - Basic P.D. + Basic Major Dia. Note: This is info from Time-sert, not some idea I have invented.

So in the case of the STI M14 x 1.25 , STI Basic PD = 14 – 13.188 + 14 = 14.812mm

Comparing this to a Helicoil tap which is measured at 15.00mm, the difference is 0.188mm smaller.

Where does all this lead?

V-threads have a self locking feature just by the design nature of the animal. It is due to the bursting influence the v has between the male and female thread. As we know well, the air-cooled VW heads are widely known to crack from the plug hole out to the ports. Just by tightening the plug too much puts a radial load on the hole which can open up the crack a bit more causing a leak in that area.

Time-sert v Helicoil:

The Time-sert is designed with an underformed female thread so when the installation “Threadflo” tap is used, it both drives the insert as well as forcing the insert hard against the tapped hole to lock it in place as well as complete the forming of the female thread to the standard size.

Now, by using a Time-sert in place of a Helicoil “because we all seem to be idiots by using Helicoils” you are most likely inducing a crack just as much as you think a Helicoil will, especially if the hole already has cracks starting due to the high radial load placed on the hole. Also, by your own admission, you used a Helicoil tap rather than the Time-sert one knowing that the Helicoil one was slightly larger thus creating a looser fit of the insert which could result in early failure again by having the insert come loose.

In light of this, I don’t think myself or Matt has given any misleading info on the subject. It has been an enjoyable time here on Aussieveedubbers with making bits for Dubbers all over the country as well as loaning them tools etc. However, there is only a certain amount of crapp one can put up with from a minority so I feel it’s now time to crank up the old 1500S and drive away from the scene.

DH

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#807386
😀

All good Dallas
Cranky Johnny (who ever he is) often likes to make point blank statements with questionably unsubstantiated do or die cold hard FACTS that we mere mortals only dream to understand.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber

366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#807812
Why would I use a Helicoil Tap !!

I don't even own one


I said that I have fitted Time serts to threads cut with a helicoil tap .
I did not say that I tapped the hole using a H- coil tap

johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber

366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#807821
Hey Matt

I stated my opinion only



you don't have to like it 😎

lighten up

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#807822
All cool this end, I was just wanting to see your version.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber

366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#807937
Thanks Mat
Although I have 150K in tools , I don't own a camera
but in the last week or 2 I have been thinking of buying one 😊

fish26 Fahrvergnugen

903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·

#808669
I have used helicoil, spark fitted inserts and Timesert and my vote is for the Timesert, its worked for me.
bitten by the bug..........several times