EJ20 DOHC vs EJ22 SOHC into an early Beetle?

PASHN8 Seriously Crusin Dubber

198 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 11 Jan 2011, 6:18 pm

#821099

Hi guys,

So after pricing up motor rebuilds on a something at least 1776cc and above and the fact that I want to use this car as my daily drive once it is rebuilt I have decided to fit a watercooled late model Subaru engine into my Beetle so I can engine reliability, fuel economy and cheaper power/torque.

My Beetle thread can be found here:
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=87316&page=1#pid814238

Bearing in mind i'm not interested by any means at this stage in making it FAST, just reliable with some decent torque to get up hills and low maintenance from an engine perspective.

Now the two main options I can see are a '91-'94 Liberty EJ22 SOHC or a EJ20 DOHC NON-turbo motor.
I've been also offered a 2000 JDM Impreza RSX EJ20 NA with AVCS that will make nice power without a turbo, with the flexible of a higher revrange and more than likely something a lot more enjoyable in a Beetle body. It also makes a fair bit more power also than the stock EJ22.

I'm happy to use a Sherman adaptor kit, VSS, suitable radiator etc.

What i'm hoping you can tell me is, which out of the two is the less intrusive to fit?
I've read that the EJ22 SOHC fits without having to cut out large amounts of metal from the rear apron or side panels bar having to hammer flat the firewall lip on the back wall.
I'm also happy to relocate the firewall further back and re-weld before the shell goes for paint.

Will the EJ20 with dual overhead cams fit without a large amount of cutting and trimming?

The other consideration is cost. Being a daily and wanting reliability and good value for money, EJ22 SOHC's are pretty cheap to come by and run forever with the right maintenance.

I'll just state that I have been reading through the large amounts of build threads both on this forum and overseas and decided it best to ask for a definitive answer prior to purchase.
Any advice would be most appreciated so I can make an educated decision on which motor is viable and head down the path of acquiring one! 🙂

Dino!

www.dinography.com.au - Property Media
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1957 11-Window Split Kombi
1954 3-Fold Sunroof Oval

ttriebler Officially Full-On Dubber

321 posts · joined Jan 2008 · 11 Jan 2011, 6:31 pm

#821101

Seeing as though you seem to want the minimum amount of cutting to the shell I would be going for the SOHC motor, it just fits a lot easier. The DOHC motors require some trimming around the rear wing area to fit in and this can be a challenge for some. There should be TONS of pics on the various forums of these two different installs.

Reversed gears for Subaru transmissions.
Fit a Subaru 5 speed to your rear engined car
www.subarugears.com

helbus Administrator Mad fabricator, paint and body

7,386 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 11 Jan 2011, 6:42 pm

#821106

SOHC fits a lot easier.

You will spend at least $5000 on EVERYTHING including engineering and legal registration.

EJ22 into Bay Microbus - Finished project build thread- click on this spot here for info

PASHN8 Seriously Crusin Dubber

198 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 11 Jan 2011, 6:43 pm

#821108

Thanks for the reply guys!

The trimming part is ok, if it is just trimming I guess? I'll have to keep hunting for pics that show a clear marking outline of what has to be cut to fit a EJ20 with DOHC heads.

I have a gun metal fabricator here in Melbourne to handle engineering/trimming changes to the body itself if I go DOHC, but nevertheless if it is large amount of metal to be removed, it might be easier to go EJ22.
The EJ22 isn't the most particularly exciting engine to drive, but compared to a standard '59 Beetle 40hp 1200, it makes a world of difference with something you have to live with and use every day, with minimum maintenance and cost.

I realise that $5k-$6k is what it will more than likely cost to complete, which is fine. I will also want to engineer it, so adding disc brakes, the correct seatbelts, 2-speed wiper etc, is also expected.

I guess i'm just trying to weight up 'Effort/trimming/cost' vs 'the final result'. If performance was the aim, i'd be fitting a EJ20T without hesitation, but I want to keep it 'low n slow' with modern convenience 🙂

Dino!

www.dinography.com.au - Property Media
www.skysight.com.au - Aerial Media

1957 11-Window Split Kombi
1954 3-Fold Sunroof Oval

helbus Administrator Mad fabricator, paint and body

7,386 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 11 Jan 2011, 6:59 pm

#821112

Speak to your engineer. I deal with Victorian engineering on a weekly basis, and VASS is gonna cost you, and the guidelines are there to let you do whatever you want, but you have to abide by them.

I personally would just chuck a 100plus HP type 1 engine setup in a beetle anyday for convenience.

Our bus was a bit different, as it was Type 2 engine, and Subaru conversion much simpler. You can have an EJ22 without modifying any part of the original bus.

EJ22 into Bay Microbus - Finished project build thread- click on this spot here for info

PASHN8 Seriously Crusin Dubber

198 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 11 Jan 2011, 7:07 pm

#821113

I see your point.

I just had another read through Joel's Subabeetle thread (great write up mate!) and can see why going a standard EJ22 SOHC is much less headache, especially if you aren't chasing the power, just the modern convenience of a fuel injected torquey 2.2.

Thanks guys, I think i'll stick with the EJ22 idea and see what regs engineering require.

Dino!

www.dinography.com.au - Property Media
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1957 11-Window Split Kombi
1954 3-Fold Sunroof Oval

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 11 Jan 2011, 7:43 pm

#821114

Honestly forget the N/A DOHC engines in a bug, the amount of body work to make one fit neatly you may as well fit a turbo engine.

This is an N/A EJ25 without the tranny moved forward
Not pretty
An EJ20 DOHC is abit narrower but only by an inch, so your pretty much dealing with the same end product....

bumper mounts.... what bumper mounts???

Dont rule out the SOHC EJ20, they're not that much down on power to an EJ22
The most powerful EJ22 is the gen1 at 100kw, the majority of SOHC EJ20s are 88KW so theres only 12kw or 16hp between them, not much in the scale of things
Still more than most of these $8K 1916s make 😂

but they are more common and newer engines but if you find a good EJ22 i say go for it.

I'm a hoon at heart but I'd be happy with an EJ20.

the EJ22 with nearly 150hp, triple the power of a 1600 is a handfull at times, i wouldnt wanna drive one without brake, tyres and suspension upgrades

Even with a serious weight issue I can match last years SS commodore to 100km/h which does it in 6.5secs

ratbug aka toddy101

439 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 11 Jan 2011, 8:13 pm

#821121

I'm with everyone else, forget the DOHC unless you want turbo. I put an import 2L dohc in my buggy 6 years ago. I chose the dohc because the engine importer had a heap of them, they were cheap and a bit more power then the dohc.
Then, 4 years later I killed the engine, could not find another DOHC 2.0L N/A in Newcastle/Sydney, everyone was saying they don't bother with them anymore as nobody buys them, they were pretty much only popular in the import jap models. So I had to get a oz SOHC equivalent. Had to modify a few things to adapt it to fit, but it was noticably smaller (narrower) and lighter. When I got it retuned, I could hardly feel any difference in power.

Sharbuilt Beach buggy with Subaru 2L Turbo
Thunderanch Riot with Subaru 2L Turbo
Manxter with FA20turbo
Click here for wiring looms

PASHN8 Seriously Crusin Dubber

198 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 11 Jan 2011, 9:35 pm

#821146

Thanks Joel and Andrew 🙂 really appreciated the feedback from experienced Dubbers.

I definitely don't want to hack up my '59, so SOHC EJ22 it is! Just have to find a decent motor/halfcut/damaged Liberty now! So you think a Gen 1 EJ22 is the go?

Craig you're a bad influence! hehe, my daily driver is a MKV GTI DSG Golf with a host of APR stuff making 166kw @ the front wheels as seen here:
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=87317&page=1#pid814240

So I have plenty of reliable power on tap there when the urge to go fast bites! I want the Beetle to just be low n slow, but reliable 🙂

Another question is it worth spending the money on a VW Type 3 single-side 4-speed gearbox (out of a '73 Beetle) to supplement the EJ22? I'm a very forgiving driver and don't abuse my toys harshly, so there will be no launching, hard shifting etc. Is it worth the effort to replace my '59 40HP Beetle box with one?

Dino!

www.dinography.com.au - Property Media
www.skysight.com.au - Aerial Media

1957 11-Window Split Kombi
1954 3-Fold Sunroof Oval

Bugaru03 Commited Dubber

70 posts · joined Mar 2008 · 11 Jan 2011, 10:25 pm

#821154

Hi PASHN8!

I totaly agree with all other people saying go for EJ20 or EJ22 NA SOHC.
I have trim mine with less cost and the engine fits like it was designed to be there!!!

The power gained from this transplant is cost effective and way too far than any other beetle engine.
Reliability & consumption will be your new friends and with a stock AA beetle gearbox you will have what you wanted for.

Some help idea you can find on my build thread here..

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=67945

Regards,
Jim

...always there is someone faster than you...

www.bugaru.gr

ElusiveStranger Officially Full-On Dubber

330 posts · joined May 2006 · 12 Jan 2011, 4:46 am

#821171

PASHN8 wrote:I'm a very forgiving driver and don't abuse my toys harshly, so there will be no launching, hard shifting etc.

You will, trust us on this. It's F U N. (EJ20 in a 78 bus)

ttriebler Officially Full-On Dubber

321 posts · joined Jan 2008 · 12 Jan 2011, 6:51 am

#821192

PASHN8 wrote:Another question is it worth spending the money on a VW Type 3 single-side 4-speed gearbox (out of a '73 Beetle) to supplement the EJ22? I'm a very forgiving driver and don't abuse my toys harshly, so there will be no launching, hard shifting etc. Is it worth the effort to replace my '59 40HP Beetle box with one?

If you end up with a halfcut/wreck that has the subie 5 speed manual, you can always consider converting that subie box to a reversed one with my parts so that you have a nice, strong 5 speed. Definately overkill for an EJ22 but might be worth considering if you want the extra cruising gear.

I have a customer recently completed an EJ22 and 5 speed conversion in his beetle, pics are on my site as well as pics of what chopping is needed to fit a quad cam ej20 into beetle. The EJ22 is an excellent and simple fit.

Just FYI that's all.

Reversed gears for Subaru transmissions.
Fit a Subaru 5 speed to your rear engined car
www.subarugears.com

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 12 Jan 2011, 11:12 am

#821231

With the gearbox looks as though your bug is still swingaxle?

Converting to IRS is a big body off job, you could find a double sideplate Sbug or type3 IRS box and put a swinger diff in but its no different then to a 1500 beetle box

being that low with the wide wheels a swinger will handle find

PASHN8 Seriously Crusin Dubber

198 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 12 Jan 2011, 2:54 pm

#821256

Good God Joel, I owe you a beer or three! I totally forgete the IRS vs Swingaxle proposition!

Back to square one it would seem.

Dino!

www.dinography.com.au - Property Media
www.skysight.com.au - Aerial Media

1957 11-Window Split Kombi
1954 3-Fold Sunroof Oval

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 12 Jan 2011, 3:02 pm

#821258

a 1500 beetle box is all you need
Same ratios as an Sbug box but has a swingaxle diff in it.

Is your bug a 36HPer?
You'll probably just need to weld in a later front mount to run a later gearbox

PASHN8 Seriously Crusin Dubber

198 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 12 Jan 2011, 3:10 pm

#821261

Mine is a '59 with a 40hp 1200 and 40hp gearbox, swing axle rear end.

I think i'll concentrate on researching the EJ22 conversion first and worry about geabox if I break mine! The reverse Subagears set up looks ace though!

Dino!

www.dinography.com.au - Property Media
www.skysight.com.au - Aerial Media

1957 11-Window Split Kombi
1954 3-Fold Sunroof Oval

ian.mezz I never said, I could write or spell

3,913 posts · joined Sep 2004 · 12 Jan 2011, 7:35 pm

#821288

don't listen to all those girls go the ej20t heaps of fun.
the orange and brown bug is a 1300 swing axle.😂🤪😂

http://www.youtube.com/user/avwnut#p/u/26/ZqULaUZR_tI

😂🤪😂🤪😂
car forums. where a lot of peoples good intentions end up taking a good old car off the road forever never ever to see the road again. 🥲

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 12 Jan 2011, 7:53 pm

#821292

Pffft, you forgot to mention young Josh broke that gearbox 😂

ian.mezz I never said, I could write or spell

3,913 posts · joined Sep 2004 · 12 Jan 2011, 8:11 pm

#821294

Joel wrote:Pffft, you forgot to mention young Josh broke that gearbox 😂

it took a fair bit to break that 35 year old gear b0x.

😂🤪😂🤪😂
car forums. where a lot of peoples good intentions end up taking a good old car off the road forever never ever to see the road again. 🥲

PASHN8 Seriously Crusin Dubber

198 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 12 Jan 2011, 8:23 pm

#821296

I reckon I'll just trailer car up to Joel and leave it with him for 3 months, jobs done! 🙂

Dino!

www.dinography.com.au - Property Media
www.skysight.com.au - Aerial Media

1957 11-Window Split Kombi
1954 3-Fold Sunroof Oval

Danzzigger Learner Dubber

4 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 6 Mar 2011, 10:39 pm

#829658

Hey PASHIN8 where about's are you located in Melb? I'm looking to do a ej22 conversion to my beetle too down the track. Might be good if we could catch up and pick each others brain's?
I'm lookin at creating a baja though, so my thought pattern will be along the lines of what'll last going off jumps and over hardcore terrain.

Well in any case if you ever need a hand, let me know. Always looking to increase my knowledge and give a hand at the same time.

Cheers
~Danz