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aussie260z Commited Dubber

61 posts · joined Apr 2011 ·

#837861
Was wondering if anyone knew where I can get this stuff from?



Some b£stard decided it was a good idea to get rid of it all from my 1974 Beetle :-)!

Why would people remove the thermostat and all of the linkages (they were removed too) and probably the flaps and deflectors? I have read and came across folks mentioning it was actually done by VW techs themselves in Australia?

barls Administrator Causer of Chaos and Mayhem

9,473 posts · joined Jun 2004 ·

#837864
mate they were all removed by factory techs at first service. try looking on the samba for possible replacement units.
“We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free.” Bill Hicks
the chaos project - click me

vw54 Administrator Always Waiting 4 Friday

16,723 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#837869
extreamly hard to find nowdays

your car will run with out it

wher r u located ???
I read it on FACEBOOK so it must be true


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409

aussie260z Commited Dubber

61 posts · joined Apr 2011 ·

#837873
mate they were all removed by factory techs at first service. try looking on the samba for possible replacement units.
The whole warmup/cool down system - Thermostat, connecting rods, flaps at the bottom of the Fan shroud?

That sounds crazy.

From what I have read in regards to the thermostat, when the engine is cold it keeps the flaps down (or does nothing more accurately), this allows minimal airflow onto the cylinders and heads, via the flaps, which thus allows the engine to warm up quicker.

When the engine is at operating temp 65-75deg (or there abouts), thermostat pops up and re-directs the air flow, via the flaps in the fan shroud so all of the air flow from the fan isn't just directed towards the cylinders............some of that airflow gets directed to the heads.

Because the heads are alloy and the pistons/sleeves are not, VW designed this system to keep the heads in a certain operating temp range............via the thermostat operation, this was so stuff doesn't get warped or worse.

Seems like removing this gear is a pretty stupid thing to do :-)!!!

Or am I missing something?

Hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm.........so chances of me finding that sort of stuff in Australia is sweet FA?

vw54 Administrator Always Waiting 4 Friday

16,723 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#837878
In Aussie unless u live in the snow fields you wont need it

but thats NOT to say its a NOT a good thing

yes it helps with the warm up and getting the engine to operating temps
BUt we do have a better climate than germany
I read it on FACEBOOK so it must be true


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409

aussie260z Commited Dubber

61 posts · joined Apr 2011 ·

#837881
Canberra..............Cold winters :-)!

I just bought the car and I spent a bit of time tuning it up, got it running reasonable well at idle, but starting and running straight away is not easy unless your hoovering over the throttle :-).

So did some investigation and came across the Cooling Vanes and Thermostat.

I don't think this is the issue on cold starting, well the major issue - when the car is warm it runs just fine, just a bit cranky on startup.

Has a Solex P34 Carb, with 009 Mech Advance Dizzy.

Set the timing up at around 25-26deg advance at 3500rpm, didn't like it any higher than that, then adjusted the volume control screw to regluate the idle, but if I dropped it below 1000rpm, car sounds like it want's to stall.

Idle is a bit variable, hops from around 1000-1250rpm, sounds like exhaust leaks, which plugged and then putting a kit through the Carby and maybe even ditching the points for a Pertronix setup would help the cold starts and overall running of the car no end I am sure!

However, still think some of it has to do with not having a thermostat and most likely deflector flaps at the bottom of the fan shroud.

BUT.................more worried about driving around without a Thermostat, tried that in another car (Not a VW) and the temp never got about 60deg, when it should have been operating around 85-90deg.

Worried that the VW Engine will be too cold on startup, particularly in a cold Canberra winter, and when warm the air is not directed to where it needs to be aswell, the heads.

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#837883
Yes - it is better if it has the vanes, but sounds like you have other problems to worry about first

For what it is worth, I dont believe any of my cars have had flaps, let alone thermostats

If your idle is hunting my bet is an air leak, and if you have a 34 Pict I reckon that is your problem

Blocked heat riser pipes will play a major part in warm up as well
Futue te ipsum!!!

aussie260z Commited Dubber

61 posts · joined Apr 2011 ·

#837885
Yeah heat risers seems okay, nice and very warm to the touch when engine is at temp.

But, carby looks very old and dirty - certainly needs pulling off and rebuilding.

So basically no one has a thermostat on their bugs in Australia :-)?

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#837894
A lot got thrown away as being not necessary

As said - I have been driving different dubs for 30 years and not had them

They would play a part in head temperatures with air direction, but ........................well, if I had them I would put them back in,but I dont
Futue te ipsum!!!

aussie260z Commited Dubber

61 posts · joined Apr 2011 ·

#837914
Well that makes me feel better.

Might see if I can get the bits from the US.

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#837940
aussie260z wrote:Was wondering if anyone knew where I can get this stuff from?



Some b£stard decided it was a good idea to get rid of it all from my 1974 Beetle :-)!

Why would people remove the thermostat and all of the linkages (they were removed too) and probably the flaps and deflectors? I have read and came across folks mentioning it was actually done by VW techs themselves in Australia?

Hi
Yes Someone at Volkswagen Australasia decided Beetles wouldn't overheat if the thermostat was removed...
so VW trained Mechanics were told [ordered] to remove the thermostat at the first service if it wasn't already removed when new.. the local VW guy told Me He just adjusted the thermostats so they wouldn';t close the flaps....

they were then thrown away....
similar thing happened in the USA too...

You can buy the New Mexican thermostats that come with the rod and bracket..

the flaps were also removed mostly by owners I believe...??
so I've been told... believed their engines would run cooler??

the two small pieces of rear tinware also have been discarded by many VW owners and these parts are now being sold new
overseas.. although they don't usually have holes in them?

The piece that fits over the crankshaft pulley was just left off many times....
I don't have mine on at the moment...
but I do usually...

another part that is sometimes missing is the pre heater pipe that collects hot air from under the engine and directs it into the air cleaner...

all these bits would have to be available 2nd hand???
as every engine had them...
but most were probably discarded after the owner sold the VW

Heaters work using heat from the exhaust and the exhaust will ALWAYS be hot regardless of the engine temperature...

The VW oil pressure relief valve stops oil from flowing to the oil cooler until the oil gets hot and thinner.. so it helps getting the engine temperature up in winter...
I have just added an external oil cooler and oil temperature sender & gauge and My engine does not get hot driving around Scone... and the oil cooler doesn't get any hot oil thru it at all..
remembering that Scone is a small Country town.. lol

cheers

LEE

3 attachments · Log in to view

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#837943
it seems that those two small pipes are pre heater pipes that lead up to the air filter...

Mine has the one large [yellow] preheater air hose....

some of the early cars also had smaller pre heaters...

best of luck

LEE

any chance of a pic of Your engine??

when cold, Your engine will go much better with the automatic choke Adjusted... very simple to do...
a new SVDA distributor will make heaps of difference to your engine too..
I bought Mine from aircooled.net in the USA....
much much better than the 009... Lee
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#837944
aussie260z wrote:Yeah heat risers seems okay, nice and very warm to the touch when engine is at temp.

But, carby looks very old and dirty - certainly needs pulling off and rebuilding.

So basically no one has a thermostat on their bugs in Australia :-)?
Very Few....

spray foaming degreaser on Your carby...
then hose off....

LEE

then paint all Your bits.... 😂
I degrease under My engine every few weeks if its dirty or oily..

one other thing...
I have spares of just about every thing on My engine...
but it took me many years at swap meets to collect them...
I also have a mexican thermostat from CIP1 that i haven't fitteda s yet..
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 ·

#837951
It was common practice but they weren't all removed.
atleast 4 or 5 of my cars have still had them.

I believed all the hype and chucked them out on my first engine build.

The only failure I've ever seen due to flaps was on a buggy.
The stat was removed as it interfered with the bar work and the spring that holds the flaps open had broken so flaps fell shut..... goodnight Irene.

Even the flaps serve a purpose when they are fully open, they act as vanes to direct the air more at the heads and less at the barrels.

I spent abit of time getting a working setup on my 1776, the most noticeable difference it makes is to fuel economy, also helps the heaters work better.

alien8 Wolfsburg Wizard

521 posts · joined Sep 2008 ·

#837960
I got a set of flaps, thermostat bracket set up from Vintage VW a few years ago. They were selling reconditioned kits with everything except the bellows thermostat. It hard to find a good working thermostat though. I bought two second hand ones and both were cactus within a month of operation. Found a guy on thesamba who got hold of the original weller tooling and is making re-manifactured thermostats using the top and bottom fittings off old thermostats but with new bellows. Pricey but as good as a brand new one.

Using the thermostat does make a big difference in warm up time. The quicker it warms up the less wear the internal spinny things are going to see.

Matt Ryan Fahrvergnugen

890 posts · joined Jan 2006 ·

#838145
alien8 wrote:Using the thermostat does make a big difference in warm up time. The quicker it warms up the less wear the internal spinny things are going to see.

Also drastically reduces condensation in crank case so no milky sludgy oil.



68AutoBug wrote:I also have a mexican thermostat from CIP1 that i haven't fitted a s yet..
Lee,

I've heard that when the Mexican ones fail, they tend to fail in the flaps closed position, so check it regularly when you fit it.


Regards,

Matt.


http://portvwforum.freeforums.org

Andy Andy\'s Adventures

2,820 posts · joined Nov 2002 ·

#838167
I have working thermostats on most of my vw's, so definitely not all removed by the factory!
I spent a lot of time playing with the setup on the kombi (type 4 motor), they work basically the same. What I did find, even in winter in brissy they open fairly quickly, about 5 min max, and never close up once up to temperature. I think you'd need to be in sub zero temps for them to restrict air flow at operating temps
So they really are only for start up in Australia, and as they operate on the air off the heads/barrels they open up long before the oil is up to temperature

I have also heard the Brazilian ones fail closed, not open, so would not like to use them

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 ·

#838197
The Wahler bellow type do get lazy as they get older, mine was NOS in the box when I got it.
I lived at the bottom of a big hill and by the time I got to the bottom, stopped and opened the shed door on an average temperature day it would be half compressed as the head temp had dropped right back.

The thing that impressed me most aside from the fuel mileage improvement was how much better the heaters worked.


There is alot of mis-information floating around the net on the new "mexi" thermostats
The biggest one is they actually come from Brazil not Mexico but people call them mexican thermostats..... go figure.

People think they are a factory part when they are just an ordinary watercooled thermostat with the housing removed and tapped for a vw rod, they're designed to be in coolant not relying on air flow.

There has been a pretty high fail rate with them probably down to that fact and when they fail it's in the closed position.

aussie260z Commited Dubber

61 posts · joined Apr 2011 ·

#839390
I want a good working heater as it sucks being in Canberra without one :-)!

I have orderd the Mexican thermostat, connection rod and securing rod bracket from CIP1, that is half the puzzle :-).

There is a place local to me that does a bit of VW Beetle work, so hopefully they have this kit lying around on one of their engines and then I can re-instate.

I have also ordered myself a carby rebuilt kit, so when I get time in the next week or so, I will pull it down and rebuild it and then play around with the timing, idle etc.

Be good to get my hands on the Thermostat pieces I need whilst I have the carby off, because to get at that Tinware it has to come off anyways.

Also, looks like most of my heater stuff is missing, half the ducting seems to be missing, plus the rear flap heater levers are both gone - plus, there is leaks a plenty underneath in the heater/exhaust system............so have to plug of all those gaps as well.

aussie260z Commited Dubber

61 posts · joined Apr 2011 ·

#839393
................plus, I am going to go with an external (more external I guess) that what is there now, just got to figure out where to put it, looks like Porsche folks mount them all the way up in the front guard, but don't particulary like the idea of such a long journey for my oil.

I have wide rear guards, so maybe I could stuff it in there.

Anyone got any pics of where you mounted your coolers?

66brm Seriously Crusin Dubber

140 posts · joined Nov 2009 ·

#839462
The standard doghouse cooler should be more than adequate for the oil cooling, as long as you have all the other tins fitted and sealed properly then you won't require more than that

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#839467
Hi
I have mine located under the left hand rear guard, away from the tyre and at an angle to stop any stones.. etc..

I will be putting alloy mesh over it to stop anything hitting it...
although where it is, nothing should hit it and it isn't actually THAT close to the tyre.... lol and the tyre can't touch it [now?]


I have had oil coolers located on top of the fan shroud with the engine lid open at top... large oil cooler..
the only thing was the heat from the oil cooler went into the engine bay too... and I don't like everything getting so Hot..
I also had a smaller unit behind the fan shroud over the opening so the fan sucked thru it..
but again everything in the engine bay got very hot...

now under the rear guard with a temperature gauge fiited and working [no thermostat on engine] oil doesn't go thru the oil cooler until the oil pressure relief valve opens when the oil is Hot and much thinner and lower in pressure...
My engine is an early 1600 with small oil galleries and only one relief valve.. and non doghouse fan shroud, & small oil pump..

some of the oil coolers up front use copper pipe so the air flowing over the pipes help cool the oil too..

You can put an outlet plate on Your oil pump and can also install a spin on oil filter... which is a HUGE benefit to air cooloed VW engines..

cheers

LEE



aussie260z wrote:................plus, I am going to go with an external (more external I guess) that what is there now, just got to figure out where to put it, looks like Porsche folks mount them all the way up in the front guard, but don't particulary like the idea of such a long journey for my oil.

I have wide rear guards, so maybe I could stuff it in there.

Anyone got any pics of where you mounted your coolers?

2 attachments · Log in to view

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 ·

#839475
66brm wrote:The standard doghouse cooler should be more than adequate for the oil cooling, as long as you have all the other tins fitted and sealed properly then you won't require more than that
This x300000000

Unless you're moving to Darwin and have a 2L+ engine an external oil cooler is only going to give you headaches.

I've had a couple of 100hp+ engines and so have 1000s of others that have run perfectly cool with a stock doghouse cooler.

If you insist on having an external one use it in conjunction with the stock cooler and put a bypass thermostat on it.

aussie260z Commited Dubber

61 posts · joined Apr 2011 ·

#839511
Just purchased FI, and the plan (once I get the rest of the car sorted) is slap a nice little turbo on the side of the motor............so figure at that stage an external (like of the engine external) oil cooler would probably be a worthwhile investment..............but that is why I am planning on it, not just because it seemed like a cool idea :-)!

BUT.................'run it inline with the existing cooler', how would you go about doing that?

What I was thinking was run an adapter where the Doghouse cooler is now, plumb in line a thermostat and coolant temp sensor (this is for the FI and Fan), so constant oil flow through the cooler, when the thermostat is warmed up, then on its way back I run it through an Oil Filter, like the idea of an oil filer :-)! All through 1/2" lines.

Mount the Oil Filter on the Passenger side firewall, and maybe (Because I have big wide guards) mount the Oil Cooler on the front side of the guard and then (If possible) run the oil lines through the passenger side firewall.

I liked the idea of opening up a vent on the front part of the Guard, but it seems like this would not be needed because I would have the thermofan on it,

But may the airflow would be better if I just slapped the Oil Cooler near the Transmission mounting forks, plus placing it there would make plumbing a sh£t load easier!
HirnI have mine located under the left hand rear guard, away from the tyre and at an angle to stop any stones.. etc..
Nice, I think I could make out where you cooler is...........don't suppose you could pop your wheel off and take another photo of that cooler :-)?

You run the oil cooler lines under the chassis rails? You running high pressure rubber hose or braided steel lines?

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#839518
Hi

The best place for an oil cooler is in the front, I've run lots of cars like that with no problems, my sons car is running only an external cooler with no cooler in the doghouse at all.

The tinware you showed in your original post is for an early car. The cover over the pulley is waste of time, VW deleted on later models.

Steve

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#839540
MORE PICS OF THE ADAPTOR ETC...

will have to wait for more pics of the oil cooler... lol

LEE

6 attachments · Log in to view

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 ·

#839584
aussie260z wrote:BUT.................'run it inline with the existing cooler', how would you go about doing that?
You'll need the case full flowed which is a sensible mod on any non stock engine.

Out of the oil pump, through a filter, through an oil cooler then back into the main gallery under the dist

You would put a thermostatically operated bypass in though

aussie260z Commited Dubber

61 posts · joined Apr 2011 ·

#839646
Thanks for the pics fellas!
HirnrnThe best place for an oil cooler is in the front, I've run lots of cars like that with no problems, my sons car is running only an external cooler with no cooler in the doghouse at all
Yeah, had a look at Cooler installation on 911's and looks like they are factory mounted in the front left guard.............just concerns me the amount of distance I am covering, but I guess if I am using braided steel line that should cover me..........might need a hefty pump to move the oil around that far though?
You'll need the case full flowed which is a sensible mod on any non stock engine
Forgive my ignorance................but what does this entail?
Out of the oil pump, through a filter, through an oil cooler then back into the main gallery under the distrnrnYou would put a thermostatically operated bypass in thoughrnrn
Sweet, too easy mate will do!

Just looking at kits, just so I get the adapter and the oil cooler...............but not sure about what the difference is between these two,

Block-Off Adapter

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13-9264

With Sandwich Adapter

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13-9217

Spin-On Bypass Adapter

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13-9263



On another note......................WHOOOHOOO

Got my hands on the Thermostat and Flaps :-)!

aussie260z Commited Dubber

61 posts · joined Apr 2011 ·

#839943
Or....................if I have the newer VW case, which I should because mine is a 1974 (Car is not close by so will have to check).

I could do a bolt on full-flow setup.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Bugpack-Bolt-On-Full-Flow-Filter-Kit-p/3014-20bp.htm

With the Return Adapter.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/SearchResults.asp?Search=Return+Adapter

Then do as you said Joel,
Out of the oil pump, through a filter, through an oil cooler then back into the main gallery under the distrnrnYou would put a thermostatically operated bypass in though
And use something like this to stop the oil going through the external oil cooler before oil temp reaches 170-175deg or so.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Engine-Oil-Thermostat-p/oil%20thermostat.htm