So,
I'd re kitted my carbs recently so to finish the job I took it in to be timed & the garage found the advance plate was seized, they cleaned this up but its still not really free.
Also the retard has long ago failed & been disconnected, not causing a prob thou.
Then to complete the picture Ive broken the small braid between the advance plate & base plate.
Hoping I can get this repaired but Im wondering If I should simply replace the dizzy, see CIP & others selling them for $40-150usd but very unsure what to go for & what to avoid, anyone brought a replacement?
71', 1600, twin carb, dual vac, stock engine.
Any comments appreciated.
Personally, I would not fit a new distributer of std design as any that I have anything to do with are poor quality and do not have the fine details necessary for correct operation. Esp. for your type 3, the vac unit needs to be correctly matched to the vacuum signal of your engine design, and they certainly are not. For your typr 3 I'd try for a good servicable original (not easy I know). For non std engines I go for the more adjustable performance distributers. CB, MSD, Mallory etc
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
should be able to pick up the correct dzizy on the samba classified unless someone here has the right one?
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
aircooled.net in the USA sell good quality distributors
to work with YOUR carburetor..
like Single Vacuum Dual Advance distributors. SVDA
beware of Chinese copies.. [looks and feels like a Bosch] lol
Maybe Indian Ones will be better??? [when they make them]
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
If the vac. retard isn't working, it may be hard to start & idle when cold. We have cleaned out, freed up and re-lubricted some units successfully, others have needed more attention (as below).
We have had them repaired / reconditioned, in Vic.
Also the vacuum units CAN be rebuilt (The company below said there were 2 places that can do it for them).
"... old dsitributors can be fully recoed/refurbished to original spec's, in Melbourne. Also the vac units can be done - are sent away for rebuilding (takes longer as they send them elsewhere).
At: Performance Ignition Services, Nunawading. 03 9872 3644
This may cost as much or even more than the new-cheap unit, but should give a "good as neu" and hopefully original-Deutsche unit (if you have the correct one in rebuildable condition to start with).
Have had two done so far and have been very pleased with results."
ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
Cheers all,
The electrician at work is going to try to solder a new braid onto mine next week, thinks it should be possible, only slight concern is the heat when running, much over 80'c and the solder may melt off, not sure what temp the unit would get to?
The plates are cleaned & free'r now, still a bit tight when assembled but hoping a bit of high temp grease will help it slide, I can live without the retard as it wasnt really causing much of a prob, advice I have is that timing just needs to be set to 7-7.5' BTDC to allow for no retard, which I guess was done when mine was removed.
Other option thats been suggested is to swap to electronic points, anyone got any experince with these on a type3, which to use, how to set up -set timing, also do you just remove the vac unit & blank the advance manifold port?
If the arm s[weights] cannot spin out easily, its not going to work great.
they have to be able to move Very freely...
what are the numbers on your distributor?
A new distributor for under $150 isn't going to be a good one either..
and changing to Pertronix pointless electronic ignition, just eliminates the points.. You still need the vacuum for initial advance [before the mechanical arms spin out]
a BOSCH 009 distributor maybe OK with twin carbureotors
[ie better than a single carby]
and You can fit Pertronix - Plazmex etc kits to them.
but a New German 009 is expensive...
a new Brasillian Bosch dissy maybe the way to go..
still NOT cheap...
Someone on here MUST have a good type 3 distributor.??
for sale??
cheers
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
Theres nothing wrong with the actual distributor, the centrafugal advance and spindle all look fine, its only the advance plate that had seized & is now clean but was still a little tight when re assembled dry.
The possible problem is if the guy cant repair the braid on the plates, or if the solder wont take the heat it may be exposed to, I think about 80'c would be the max & dont know how hot it gets in there.
The Advance works fine just the retard thats kaput but seems common to disconnect this, dual vac diaphrams selling for about $80us +postage if I really want to get it going again but wasnt really causing much of an issue.
If I can get a firm answer on which elec ign to use & how to set it up etc etc I would be happy to convert Which I understand would do away with the old advance plates & braid but Im not going there unless its a proven option.
Hi
I need the numbers on the distributor to see what its compatible with [pertronix kit]
OK on the retard being a no go..
so long as the vaccum advance works..
this makes for better smoother driving but NOT essential..
the plate needs to be well oiled..
and move freely as do the other parts..
I had My dissy apart the other day..
make sure none of the screws touch anything inside the distributor..
You can get many different solders.. some take a lot of heat to melt, others don't.. the joint should be OK even though the metal parts would get very hot [to touch] in normal conditions..
Naturally, You will try to get it going at minimal costs, and don't want to spend heaps of money if its not totally necessary..
the Pertronix etc just stop You having to adjust the points or renew them etc... or renew condensors.. or do the timing..
Someone was selling PLAZMEX electronic kit in VWA magazine earlier in the year.. they were very cheap, and may fit most distributors whereas Pertronix have special kits for different distributors..
cheers
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
The solder must be a high temperature type eg. "silver solder", as used by fitters on steel, stainless, etc.
The distbutor is a common type (JFUR-4) & is actually mech adv only, with a larger than usual dual connection Retard vacuum unit.
The vacuum retard is only for starting and idle (and may affect reliable idling, as we have found with some). The plate need not move at all: the mech adv is underneath the plate, operated by springs. What appears to be the vac. advance side - is not - it just returns the plate to the static position as thottle opens.
Late Type three's only came with the more usual looking dual mech + vac ("SVDA") advance on F.I. engines (and these are the best original ones to get... provided you connect to the correct vacuum port).
If it is starting & running OK, just set Static timing to ~7.5 to 10btdc. AND make sure both hoses from the LH carb/manifold are blocked securely.
Or you could replace it with a "009" (set to ~10btdc). This should work well too.
You don't Need an electronic system -- unless you don't like to replace points occasionally, and set the initial timing.
ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
Now you've done it,
Really got some of the guys on the UK type3&4 forum whacked with the advance - retard thing, apparently its well posted on various forums that they are advance retard units.
Am I understanding it right if I say ;
The system is actually a retard unit with a vacuum assisted return, not infact a vacuum advance, the advancing is all done by the mechanical centrifugal springs within the distributor so if the retard fails you may as well disconnect both pipes as the manifold pipe can only return the plate to '0' which is where it will be anyway as it is no longer being retarded, and will not / cannot actually advance anything?
a) Sorry! Possibly some other models may have had more complicated advance/retard action?
b) Maybe English cars were different, I don't know. The Haynes type 3 manual doesn't show the JFUR.4 distributor at all. There is a full description though in the Australian Sci. Pub. (later Gregory's) type manual. Earlier type 3's probably had the more usual SVDA type, but we haven't owned one like that (mostly '70 models on).
c) Yes, you are right. When all working, with Static timing at 7.5BTDC, a strobe will show 0 BTDC at idle, coming back to 7.5, as speed goes above idle. That is why the manuals say to remove vac hoses if setting with strobe (at 7.5).
ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
JFUR4 is mentioned in the scientific publication from what I recall as I am sure I had one in my square years ago.
dual action vacuum canister yeah?
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
haz77 wrote:Now you've done it,
Really got some of the guys on the UK type3&4 forum whacked with the advance - retard thing, apparently its well posted on various forums that they are advance retard units.
Am I understanding it right if I say ;
The system is actually a retard unit with a vacuum assisted return, not infact a vacuum advance, the advancing is all done by the mechanical centrifugal springs within the distributor so if the retard fails you may as well disconnect both pipes as the manifold pipe can only return the plate to '0' which is where it will be anyway as it is no longer being retarded, and will not / cannot actually advance anything?
I believe from what I have read about the DUAL Vacuum distributors.. [very common in the USA]
One vacuum can retards the distributor timing...
One can ADVANCES the distributor timing..
so it should have TWO vacuum cans..
PLUS it still has the mechanical weights in the bottom to mechanically advance.. more..
so, with the retard vacuum can disconnected and the port plugged.. it should still work like an SVDA distributor
vacuum advance then mechanical advance.. = great.
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
This is the vac can on a
JFUR.4
0 231 167 014
311 905 205 T
Which is a 71 twin carb model.
http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/389629_10150607173145896_1107213667_n.jpg
Pipe shown is the manifold pipe, which Brutus thinks/thought was the retard return but is commonly believed to be the vacuum advance, the disconnected one it the carb body pipe which would be the retard, if the vac unit was working.
Should get the advance plates back on Sat with the braid repaired so will go from there,,,
That's the correct dist. This is a good unit if in good cond. (Is the car an Auto.?)
Sounds like you have the hose shown going to the the Manifold, which is wrong...
The spigot with the larger bore ( the one on the R) is to be connected to the manifold (LOWER connexion point). This is the Retard part (note which side it's on, in relation to an SVDA unit). The other smaller hose (vacuum Return - not meant to "advance") connects to the spigot On The L Carb, near the idle jet [Not on the manifold as you stated]. Do not reverse the conexions if you get the plate freed up! Block hoses from the manifold/carb if you do not use them, or you will have vac leaks. You could check the vac unit by trying to blow or suck thru both pipes, in the usual way. When it all seems to work, you can check correct action with a strobe, & varying the revs & removing/replacing the hoses.
ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
^^ I agree on the hoses
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
All back together now, braid repair looks good, just a pin head of light grease between the plates & moving freely now & looking, good the just wondering though,
When I suck on vac advance hose there is a slight leak, if I continue to suck it stays advanced but if I block the pipe with my tongue it slowly moves back, is this normal of has the vac unit failed?
Dont want to fit the Distributor back til I know if it needs changing.
Sorry dude, but that means the diaphram is cactus.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
Yeah thought so, has been suggested that it may be ok as the vacuum is a constant and only stops when the engine does so it could still be ok with a small leak.
Anyone got a vac unit they could sell that holds vacuum on the advance side ( pipe that points away from the distributor) with 813 on the arm?
