Hi Guys
Im looking to fit my back end back together. Just wondering what is better for the blocks (sleaves) on either side of the swing plate.
The red urethane sleaves or rubber ones.
Cheers
Newt
It is as it is - If you didnt enjoy today, you've missed the opportunity.
So much for putting this under tech talk - ooops.
It is as it is - If you didnt enjoy today, you've missed the opportunity.
sorted for you mate
“We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free.” Bill Hicks
the chaos project - click me
probably urethane, but grease either really well
Keeping it real !
Make sure it's RUBBER GREASE, if you use grease.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
Good OEM rubber unless big hp is my preference
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
matberry wrote:Good OEM rubber unless big hp is my preference
As above
lay rubber
Cheers guys.
Newt
It is as it is - If you didnt enjoy today, you've missed the opportunity.
its a hard one, OEM quality rubber is what I lean towards because its properly engineered to work.
I would jump on urethane if there was decent designed ones out there.
what we really need is higher duro OEM quality rubber bushes all round.
if you wanted to try poly bushes you can try these. Superpro. I have been using them for all my other cars for years and they are unkillable and designs are good and give "on rails" handling
I swear by them, leaves all other brands for dead in terms of performance, longevity and reliability. I have gone though others regularly but still of my first lot of sets of superpros even years later and some getting close to 200,000km of hard terrain use.
That said I have not tried them of my VWs as they currently don't offer inner trailing arm bushes. I have had problems when mixing poly with normal rubber before and thats why I haven't used their spring by plate bushes themselves yet.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
Vlad
Interesting thought about not mixing and matching.
Im curious what happened when you used rubber inner trailing arms and urethane for the swing plate.
Iwas thinking about doing it the other way round.
Newt
It is as it is - If you didnt enjoy today, you've missed the opportunity.
I have red urethane spring plate bushings and I think they too hard. I am getting a knock in the suspension ,when checked,these bushes are starting to tear the nobs off. They don't have the natural movement of the rubber ones
Newt wrote:Vlad
Interesting thought about not mixing and matching.
Im curious what happened when you used rubber inner trailing arms and urethane for the swing plate.
Iwas thinking about doing it the other way round.
Newt
not on my vw but on the other car I had rubber upper arms and urethane lower. the shuddering and wheel hop was horendous, to the point I got engine reversal when trying to take of gently. I recently replaced the upper with some urethane ones I found on a parts car.
Much better now.
its play havoc on suspension and drivetrain harmonic that's for sure.
On a vw the toe in/out will change change under acceleration/braking more than a set up where all the material is the same. rubber compresses, poly barely does. So you get a movement bias at the rubber bushes which will effect the alignment/geometry.
as for you comment on inner poly bushes, I don't even know if any ones out there that aren't crap. I got bugpak ones from CSP.
I have been mucking around with poly bushes long enough to pick that these wont work well. They are just a generic cotton real bush( needs to be properly profiled) , loose tolerance as all hell, hard as solid plastic, no knurling in the poly ID, crush tube loose as all hell on the pivot bolt.
nah these suck. I wouldn't used them. I think all the others on the market would also be the same re branded junk.
not sure how compatible or amount of mods required to fit alternatives like this mob make. I like the mono ball bush they have.
http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/rubberbushings/911rubberbushings.htm
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
lohoon wrote:I have red urethane spring plate bushings and I think they too hard. I am getting a knock in the suspension ,when checked,these bushes are starting to tear the nobs off. They don't have the natural movement of the rubber ones
its more of a design problem. the bushes should have a machined inner sleeve and thrust face to press on to the spring plate, bush ID should be knurled, lubricated with special grease which so far I have noticed superpro are the only ones doing the correct grease?
poly has a massive friction coefficient and the design should take this in consideration. so many makers of these bushes blindly copy existing rubber bush designs and sell it on as a bogus item that by its very nature will never function correctly.
poly bushes work best with small pivot pins due to the rigidity and high friction. So on a spring plate the pivot being the spring plate itself thats one huge pivot pin with massive surface area so it doesn't do the application justice.
unfortunately 95% of vw owners being tight asses the R&D and investment for companies to design and develop proper bushes that are readily available for every other car isn't justified as the market is dominated by tight asses lol.
who here would pay 50 bucks per bush? hands up
😂
I would, thats me, I do already and I am used to it and I like handling.
😁
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
Guys
Strange questoin, but who sells rubber inners?
Ta
Newt
It is as it is - If you didnt enjoy today, you've missed the opportunity.
I have round and both knobbys available, like most other good VW shops I'd reckon
$9 each
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
getting harder to get those now. cip1 has them and I assume VVDS would too since I find they stocked some of the odd parts no one else had.
The spring plate bushes can be found anywhere though.
now I have a question.
Can you get any of the rubber OEM bushes that are still made in Germany?
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
OEM rubber; got mine from VVDS. Rubber greased them and haven't had a squeak or problem
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=311511246BMW R65 LS
1967 1300 Deluxe
Swing-axles FTW
❗
these look like the real deal. price also suggests they should be German ones.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-113-501-541-C
I want to point out something. The OEM rubber from a performance point of view on a VW should be quite good as the ratio between pivot pin diameter and bushing rubber diameter is quite small where most other higher performing cars have tinny pivot pins in comparison to the rubber thus the load supporting capability of the VW's factory setup in theory should be really good in comparison to 95% other other cars.
question? if the spring plate is unbolted but the trailing arm still bolted at the inner bushes, how much can you distort and move it around in unnatural positions?
I know all other cars where I disconnected control arms and move them around on a single bush its like its connected by a piece of jelly.
In those cases the pins are tinny, typically 12-15mm diameter. The VW's inner bush pin is like 18-19mm? and not much rubber in between. The spring plate pivot is what? 45mm diameter? thats pretty big.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
Ok Guys,
Going rubber.
I presume they still need lubricating at install.
Whats good?
Cheers
Newt
It is as it is - If you didnt enjoy today, you've missed the opportunity.
VW specify talc powder.
I only grease poly bushes with the grease provided. which now for superpro is silicone based grease. Was a lithium based grease?
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
Now, I'm not a suspension expert, but I think a lot of people here seem to be missing something. As far as my understanding goes, the rubber bushes are designed to grip, both to the inner and outer surfaces. This is why VW does not tell you to use grease, the talcum powder is only to stop them getting pinched as you tighten up the spring plate housing. The spring plate only moves through a fairly small angle, so the bushes can move through the range of motion by torsional twisting of the rubber. Because there's no slipping, they dont' squeak and don't wear out due to friction.
The urethane bushes are far too hard for this to work, so they have to slip, usually on the inner surface. This is why they require grease. All this moving also causes them to squeak, creak and then wear out much quicker than the rubber ones.
I got OEM type rubber ones for mine.
Thanks Vlad.
Waveman - I didnt see that line of thought coming - interesting - thanks.
Cheers
Newt
It is as it is - If you didnt enjoy today, you've missed the opportunity.
he is correct on the most part. I will add this though.
normally rubber bushes are bonded to the inner and outer shells (what shells? exactly!) so they twist as they rotate. For this to work best, there is also voids in the bush to make the twisting work better and also dampen vibration.
VWs have rubber bushes with no shells, no bonding, no shells, no voids so although they do grip and twist, they can only do so much and also slip to a certain degree with larger rotations. Talc is a dry lube to help with install AND lube for slippage which stops squeaking by stopping the rubber sticking to the metal.
The inner trailing arm bush is traditional bonded type bush as far as I can see. No talc on that one.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
I've always used rubber grease on mine and never had a problem.
The bushings in mine now are the same ones I fitted 14 years ago and have travelled over 100k on these shitty roads.
I have to tweak my rear ride height soon and will probably replace them just due to the age but they were still perfect when I last adjusted it a few years ago.
Urethane bushings have there time and place like in the front of a Super they are vastly superior to stock rubber but I'd never use urethane in the rear again.
Did with one of my other Bugs and they were noisy, harsh ride and didn't last all that long before starting to crack apart.
Thats why I never fitted them either. too many VW design limitation in the rear for poly ones or anything half decent.
rubber is perfect for the application really.
grease is fine as long as its silicone or caster oil based specifically for rubber. petroleum based damage the rubber over time.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
I use the PBR castor oil based stuff.
Wasn;t cheap but a tube has lasted me a while.
Joel wrote:I use the PBR castor oil based stuff.
Wasn;t cheap but a tube has lasted me a while.
I have that stuff too, I use it to reco all my calipers.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
well look what we might have here.
http://superpro.com.au/superpro-parts/?view=part&id=SPF0633K&cid=999500983&vid=
could be the inner trailing arm bushes I been hoping these guys would make for more than a couple of years now.
Not much info other than its for the rear and suits t1, they haven't put any details yet as this only been listed recently.
Would love to see what there are like
👍
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
ahh? could actually be a glitch in their catalog, PN corresponds to super front bush? some reason listed as rear end bush in the non super bug.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
