IDF style throttle bodies

VWCOOL wrote:The distance between throttle plate and port is very important. Having a short distance between the throttle and the ports gives the best throttle response, especially with no plenum - that way, the atmosphere pressure can fill your cylinders as soon as the throttle is cracked open, not have to blow air through a long twisty messy labyrinth of pipes and chambers. Instant fill = instant throttle response and better power (less loss through intake system). That's why many higher-performance cars have multiple throttle bodies

So I guess you'll be using the lower Type 3 style manifolds will you for shorter inlet tracts and better throttle response?

Leigh Harris' car had these issues with the 4 TB injection,
"Although visually pleasing to the eye it was no five-minute job to change spark plugs and the quad throttle bodies never stayed in sync for more than 100 km."

http://www.clubvw.org.au/leigh_harris.htm

seems like he had some real linkage issues. 🙁
Apparently it was pretty loud too. 😎

pete wood wrote:

VWCOOL wrote:The distance between throttle plate and port is very important. Having a short distance between the throttle and the ports gives the best throttle response, especially with no plenum - that way, the atmosphere pressure can fill your cylinders as soon as the throttle is cracked open, not have to blow air through a long twisty messy labyrinth of pipes and chambers. Instant fill = instant throttle response and better power (less loss through intake system). That's why many higher-performance cars have multiple throttle bodies

So I guess you'll be using the lower Type 3 style manifolds will you for shorter inlet tracts and better throttle response?

Leigh Harris' car had these issues with the 4 TB injection,
"Although visually pleasing to the eye it was no five-minute job to change spark plugs and the quad throttle bodies never stayed in sync for more than 100 km."

http://www.clubvw.org.au/leigh_harris.htm

seems like he had some real linkage issues. 🙁
Apparently it was pretty loud too. 😎

No, if I got to EFI, I'll be running normal IDF style equal-length manifolds topped with IDF style TBs, drilled and tapped (probably) for idle function from a remote, single central IAC 'plenum'.It's all in the planning/investigation stages atm.. but I certainly won't be running some 5-foot long, dual-plenum intake system with more pipes than a public dunny!
Linkages are easy... but I'll have a chat to Leigh as well

[Edited on 23-10-2004 by VWCOOL]

Hey, http://www.kalmaker.com.au


doesn't work...! Damn!

VWCOOL wrote:Hey, http://www.kalmaker.com.au


doesn't work...! Damn!

.... hmmmm, must be a server problem - it was working when I posted that link... try again later....

You could also have a look at: http://kalmaker.hotrodhandbooks.com.au/index.php

This is the Kalmker forum, so there is a fair bit of chat (this forum is fairly slow moving, so if you post a question, be prepared to wait for an answer - most of the members are probably out driving/enjoying their cars! 😀 )

I will try to post some pics of my system later today....

R 🙂

OK Folks (or should that be Volks? 😀),

I have taken some more pics, initially I thought that I would just post the pics here, however I felt that the lower resolution pics wouldn't really tell the story in enough detail, so I will post the links to the full size pics (in my personal web space) with a description of what you are looking at.

Firstly I should point out that the finishing touches have not yet been put on the system as I didn't want to make things too permenant until it is all installed on my 1835 engine, and the body is back on the car - so this is why the wiring loom is still unwrapped, and you can see the odd wire/connector left hanging (some of this is for the Air conditioning controls and condensor fan that are not yet fitted!)....anyway, here we go:

Engine - the entire engine as it stands at the moment. The Baja style exhaust makes it difficult to get good pics of the dissy and TB, but I did try!

Throttle Body - the Camira TB (which includes the Idle Air Control (IAC), remounted on a standard VW manifold centre. There are a stack of vac ports on the back of the TB (not visible in this pic) that had to be blocked off. The vac hose coming out the side of the TB, over the top of the altinator, goes to the MAP sensor, which will be mounted on the firewall when the body goes back on.

Throttle Body and Adaptor - much the same as the shot above, except that you can see the adaptor that I made to mount the TB on the VW manifold. Sure I could have mounted the TB directly onto the manifold if I had welded the flange for the TB onto the manifold (if it cleared the altinator), but this system was designed to be bolt on (as much as possible 🙂 ). Also, in the back of the adaptor is the IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor, another good reason to use the adaptor.

Distributor, Coil and TB - The Camira Dissy can be machined to fit the VW case without too much trouble. The drive foot on the Camira Dissy fits the VW dissy drive in the case - so just machine and drop in! The bottom edge of the dissy comes very close to the old fuel pump mounting, but as I won't have this mounting in my 1835 case, it's not really an issue. The coil is from a Camira (easier to just bolt it on, rather than change the wiring). You can also see the bracket that I made to enable the throttle cable to connect to the TB.

Injector Mounting - I had the standard TP castings modified by a friend of mine who does alloy welding. They are not perfect (internally) so I am planning on changing them in the future. Although mounted in the best position for fuel delivery (in theory), the injectors are going to cause problems with clearance in relation to the bodywork so I will mount them in a more upright position, further up the end casting next time. I have used standard type III fuel rails and Camira injectors with the plastic clamp section removed from where the hose is fitted. Alternatly I could have used VL Commodore injectors, which are designed to fit like this anyway.

Fuel regulator and injector mountings - another shot of the injectors. You can see the injector mounting brackets (home made!) and the fuel regulator (Camira item). The fuel return line then runs back along the manifold to the surge tank.

Temp sensor - NBTurbo, this ones for you! This is the 'Temp Sensor II' from the Type III and Type IV factory EFI set-up. There was no fitting for this sensor in the heads fitted to this engine so I have just wedged it in place between the head and the tinwear to stop the ECU from throwing an error, however the heads on my 1835 do have the necessary fitting 🙂 . It is located on the 1 & 2 side of the engine, but it could have been put on the other side.

O2 sensor - This is a three wire heated oxygen sensor, original fittment in Ford Falcons. I welded a O2 sensor nut (available from good exhaust shops) into the neck of the collector, just below the three bolt flange. I also went to a wreckers and purchased a short length of wiring loom from a Falcon so that it could be made to just plug-in, making exhaust removal or sensor replacement very easy.

Surge tank (top) and low pressure fuel pump - top of my surge tank (currently held in place with a couple of chunks of wood and g-clamps :duh but will be bolted to the underneath of the parcel shelf once the body is back on). You can also see the low pressure pump, used to pump fuel from the main fuel tank to the surge tank.

Surge tank (bottom) and high pressure pump - the underneath of the surge tank, the take off hose that goes to the HP pump can clearly be seen in this pic. The HP pump is a Jap pump of unknown origion, but I have also used a pump from a VL and a pump from an EFI Kombi to the same effect.

ECU - the Delco 808 ECU, fitted with real-time board. The ECU will be fitted to the inside of the firewall once the body is back on. You can see the Data Cable plugged into the top of the ECU. This cable would normally go to the back (serial port) of my laptop so that I can tune it and see what the engine is doing. Fantastic just being able to change a number and hear it effect the engine!

Some of these pics, and many others can be found on my website if you would like to know what I went through. (click the "www" button on the bottom of this post to go to my website.)

Is there something that you would like to see, that I have missed?

Hope this helps to answer some questions! 😀

R 🙂



[Edited on 25-10-2004 by ratty 63]

...of course I also had to have the fuel tank modified for a return line and fit the return line to the pan. I have also used the Camira wiring loom (needed very little modification once it was unwrapped and eash plug was identified), the relays and mountings from the Camira and even the fusable links from the Camira (mounted next to the battery). I had to add a couple of relays to control the Low Pressure pump and heated O2 sensor, but that relativly straight forward wiring!

Also, the fact that I used the Temp Sender II to talk to the ECU means that I can still use the VDO sender (mounted in my block) to operate the (oil) temp gauge on the dash. The Tacho can be wired straight into the loom as there is a take off wire already there! Too easy!

R 🙂

Still watching all the moves.

thanks for that, ratty. Sums everything up nicely! I have joined the Kalmaker forums

Now, about those IDF style throttle bodies that I want to use...

...oh yeah, thats what this thread was about wasn't it....:duh

R 🙂

Any success yet G?