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Beetle aerodynamics

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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#366631
Has anybody ever studied the relative aerodynamics of various Beetles? None of them are much good, but is one significantly better than the other? For instance, would the lower roofline of an Oval win the battle with the wind, or would the curved screen (but bigger front area) of an L-bug be better? Who would know?!
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Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366639
i was told the oval was the best - especially with the laid back head lights and semephores.

I think the worst was a beetle with upright head lights and front indicators on the top of the guards
Futue te ipsum!!!

buzzbug Praise the lowered

1,992 posts · joined Mar 2003 ·

#366654
"Beetle aerodynamics"
isn't that an oxymoron?

Lee.
some people are like slinky's
they have no useful purpose
but they are fun to watch
when you push them down the stairs

squizy Thinking about another dub...maybe

4,082 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·

#366657
Yeah I agree with Barry, Glenn. I believe the early models with their flatter, more laid back fronts, are more aerodynamic. I remember reading something about this in an old Hot VW or Trends, but can't remember much else. I'll have a search.

Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366680
I have also heard the Ovals are slightly better than the other early models for front profile because of the difference in roof. Although I'd guess it'd be pretty minor.

Yes I think "beetle aerodynamics" is a bit of an oxymoron 🙂 A kombi is different though 🙂 Funny how in the 30's and 40's people thought the beetle design was ingenious because of its aerodynamics??
Jon

Starbug rustbag

2,408 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#366691
what aerodynamics?:P

you would think that the ovals, with their smaller profile and smoother guards/lights would be the most aerodynamic, but the difference would be so very small...

anyone know of a wind-tunnel we could hire out and test this with? hehehehe
in the beginning, the universe was created.
this made alot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move.

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#366695
as I understand it, Beetles have a real issue with aerodynamics once you get up close to 100mph. The shape of the body makes the air cling to it as it passes over it and the air lifts it. Guys at bonneville ended up using little wings to stop the cars lifting dangerously over 100mph. I used to notice my 67 beetle get really floaty above 120kmh. 140 was as quick as I ever dared go, it got way to floaty and scarey.

It called the liberati(?) effect...well not that name, but it's an italian name anyway. You can see it by putting the convex side of a spoon near a running tap. If you hold the shaft of the spoon lightly and put the back of the spoon near the stream of water so it is just touching it, you'll find the water pulls the spoon into the stream almost magnetically. It's really strong.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#366721
Yes, being shaped like an aeroplane wing, towards 200km/h an Oval body can be a bit ... light... 😉

A mate of mine and Craig's who used to race videoed his hillclimb car at speed on the freeway - at relatively slow speeds (like, 100 kays, if I recall) the rear lifted by more than an inch. The gap between the tyres and the guards made it obvious...

If anybody has some hard-and-fast fact about real-world experiences (eg: old magazone article or whatever - Bonneville would be good!) on drag, stability and lift it would be great :thumb


[Edited on 3/6/2005 by VWCOOL]
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DIY-DUB Custom Title Time!

1,591 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#366748
all i know is goin down a highway with cross winds in a stock height super is nasty

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366823
pete wood wrote:It called the liberati(?) effect...well not that name, but it's an italian name anyway.
Bernoulli's principle

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
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amazer kombi pilot

3,187 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366836
you could just get a kombi and have no dramas with lift at all, not at any speed 😀
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf

toplessbug Fahrvergnugen

879 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366837
how to hot rod vw engines has a large chapter on this subject written by paul lamar who was the aerodynamacist for jim halls chapparal race team and aerodynamic consultant to american institute of aerodynamicsand astronautics as well as road and track magazine and many more.
he states 75 to 80 mph puts the beetle into high speed regions which are literally unsafe especially on uneven road surfaces or crosswinds ...
stock beetle 1969 weighs 1800 lbs total aero lift at 100 mph is 430 lbs
quote" the vw is probably close to flying as it approaches 100mph,stick to the original design capability 75 mph "

get a copy and read it is very interesting

Warrenm Wolfsburg Wizard

466 posts · joined Aug 2004 ·

#366839
Bizarre wrote:i was told the oval was the best - especially with the laid back head lights and semephores.

I think the worst was a beetle with upright head lights and front indicators on the top of the guards
The Kombi is more aerodynamic than a Beetle. I posted the research from University /factory research some months ago.
Warren
Found it 20/10/04

I also have camper and bus and at 85-90 get around 10-12 depending on condition.
As for arerodynamics please read the following.
The idea for the Type 2 is credited to Dutch

For other uses of the word Dutch, see Dutch (disambiguation).

. Volkswagen importer Ben Pon, who drew the first sketches of the van in 1947.
Aerodynamics is a branch of fluid dynamics concerned with the study of gas flows. The solution of an aerodynamic problem normally involves calculating for various properties of the flow, such as velocity, pressure, density, and temperature, as a function of space and time. Understanding the flow pattern makes it possible to calculate or approximate the forces and moments acting on bodies in the flow. This mathematical analysis and empirical approximation form the scientific basis for heavier-than-air flight.
The aerodynamics of the first prototypes were not good but heavy optimisation took place at the wind tunnel of the Technical University of Braunschweig
. The wind tunnel work paid off, as the Type 2 was aerodynamically superior to the Beetle despite its slab-sided shape. Three years later, under the direction of Volkswagen's new CEO Heinz Nordhoff, the first production model left the factory at Wolfsburg
:repuke

[Edited on 3-6-2005 by Warrenm]
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Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366862
I'm pretty sure the Kombi has a lower coefficient of drag but the frontal area is much more i'm guessing, so it CdA is probably higher. The Cd of a beetle is 0.38 according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient, which isn't actually as bad as I thought it would be.
Jon

Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366866
actually every other source I have looked at says a beetle is somewhere in the 0.44 range. I think that wikipedia is referring to the NB

[Edited on 3-6-2005 by Che Castro]
Jon

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366870
Here's the stuff on beetles

VW Beetle - Drag Coefficient = 0.49
Frontal area = 1.80m/sq

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366876
I'm very interested in your Cd values. I only ever found one for the beetle = 0.458, and I can't remember where I got that from.

I am quite suprised with the low values for the type 3. I really didn't think it would be anywhere near that low.

When I had my curved windscreen L bug I was sure it was much better than a normal beetle. And my Baja is absolutely shocking, which probably isn't suprising.

You can see how big an effect Cd has on top speed by playing with my Excel Dyno.
http://www.offroadvw.net/exceldyno/

If you have a dyno chart for your car, and you find it's top speed on flat ground, then you can back calculate your Cd as well.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Craig Paton Wolfsburg Wizard

620 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#366879
My '68 Bug feels fine at 105mph. Straight and true even in the braking area.

amazer kombi pilot

3,187 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366887
Che Castro wrote:actually every other source I have looked at says a beetle is somewhere in the 0.44 range. I think that wikipedia is referring to the NB

[Edited on 3-6-2005 by Che Castro]
I always thought the T2 kombis had a Cd 0.38. I get into a lot of arguments with people when they say aerodynamics of a brick. Well yeah, but better than a F1 car! It all depends on what part of aero you talk about. And of course you always bend the rules to support your own argument.

When I had my kombi in NT doing right back around to 0 kmh it felt absolutely fine. I wouldnt have taken my hands off the wheel, and I wouldnt like to have a road train come the other way, but on its own it drove along very nicely, no fears at all... other than the oil temp.

An early beetle would easily be the slipperiest. Small front screen, smooth bumpers, small wheels, smooth headlights. semaphores or smaller indicators.

edit: not as blunt on the bonnet too

[Edited on 3-6-2005 by amazer]
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#366892
Hmmmm... I have some research to do!
Pay your debts, CxxT

Warrenm Wolfsburg Wizard

466 posts · joined Aug 2004 ·

#366931
Che Castro wrote:I'm pretty sure the Kombi has a lower coefficient of drag but the frontal area is much more i'm guessing, so it CdA is probably higher. The Cd of a beetle is 0.38 according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient, which isn't actually as bad as I thought it would be.
The slab side plus the virtual Kamm tail helps a lot
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Warrenm Wolfsburg Wizard

466 posts · joined Aug 2004 ·

#366935
Most cars are shaped like an airfoil and have low drag. A well-designed car has a drag coefficient (Cd) between 0.25 and 0.30. Cd is a measurement of drag; the higher the Cd, the greater the drag.

The sloping back end of a VW Beetle gives it more drag than most other cars have. A Beetle's Cd is 0.38.

The wings that Ernest Rogers added to his VW Beetle gave it a blunter back end, making it aerodynamically more like that of other cars. The wings decreased the Beetle's Cd to 0.28.

http://www.gradewinner.com/p/articles/mi_m0BFU/is_8_90/ai_n8589271
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Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366938
Anyone know what a Karmann Ghia is? I saw one source that said it was 0.30 and it has a small frontal area.
Jon

amazer kombi pilot

3,187 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#366949
probably not good as the air would be very turbulent going over all the holes... rusty piles of junk they are 😉
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#366970
Warrenm wrote:Most cars are shaped like an airfoil and have low drag. A well-designed car has a drag coefficient (Cd) between 0.25 and 0.30. Cd is a measurement of drag; the higher the Cd, the greater the drag.

The sloping back end of a VW Beetle gives it more drag than most other cars have. A Beetle's Cd is 0.38.

The wings that Ernest Rogers added to his VW Beetle gave it a blunter back end, making it aerodynamically more like that of other cars. The wings decreased the Beetle's Cd to 0.28.

http://www.gradewinner.com/p/articles/mi_m0BFU/is_8_90/ai_n8589271
I thought Cd was the coefficient of drag, not the measure of it...? And which Beetle has a Cd of 38? Oval? 60s? 1500, Super or L? Is that better orworse than the others?

[Edited on 3/6/2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#367035
Hi

Hopefully my L Bug (1303) with the curved front screen will not be to bad, it will have an areodynamic package, Aero look mudguards, rear tail and 40hp/Porsche style headlights.

The aerodynamic testing in How to Hotrod VW engines is pretty outdated, I say this after having driven beetles very quickly with & without areo dynamic aids.

Steve

My new tail style,


56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#367102
They're not parting out the "DAK TO THE FUTURE" are they.

Steve, tell us it's not true.

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#367131
Ho

No Richard just had the 1st tail out of the mould mounted up on DTTF for me and others to have a look at, I think this tail was sent overseas.

Thew air intakes should solve the problem of getting cool air into the air cleaner intakes

Steve

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#367132
Hi

Saw this on Samba & German look, is that some sort of stone deflector on the bonnet?

Steve