jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard
403 posts · joined May 2005 ·
Hey dubber 91,what sort of dollars all commitment would it take to set this project up?JVLRacing
The fear doing a Engine Conversion!
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
There is a reason why no other manugfacturer on the planet has taken up the rotary and mazda has only ever offered it in 'niche' models. They are actually horribly inefficient... Good specific power output for capacity/weight/size etc but efficiency is disgusting due to large surface area of combustion chambers etc etc. A Subie won't need rebuild for 300,000km at least with routine oil changes and proper (ie: not aftermarket) managementdubber91 wrote:to me the rotary is the way to go. The engine rebuilds are potentially easier (not necessarily cheaper) and working where i do (a test/proving track) i work with injection every day. I may even have a play with the fuel map and see what happens....
its says something, however, when one manufacturer, has spent around 12 year developing an engine, that is more efficient than any other conventional engine after a hundreds year development.
They arent better...but the potential is there i beleive...
Which PG? Anglesea? They're all fun!nn[ Edited on 15-7-2005 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
dubber91 Casual Dubber
28 posts · joined Jun 2005 ·
as a test engineer at a european proving ground, i agree with what you have stated. There are other advantages though. Ease of rebuild for instance.....when it does require one, with modified stock components, i have seen rotaries with 150k on REBUILT engines. They are a doddle to rebuild and arent as expensive as you may think. They also wont blow gearboxes apart with unuseable torque; a beetle is a light car it doesnt require all of the torque that modified VW engines and scoobies put out. I agree though, scoobies are a very reliable well made engine...just not my bag. I want to stand out and i prefer revs and slipping clutches rather than torque and snapped driveshafts. Emmissions wise the rotaries are bad; i know this, and also fuel consumption wise. But find a car that can develop the same HP figures and through back good fuel consumption and ill pay you for the blueprint hear and now.....:vader
They have got a bad reputation, but i have never had one fail badly on me...
Steve
They have got a bad reputation, but i have never had one fail badly on me...
Steve
Man who stand with hand in pocket fel cocky all day
jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard
403 posts · joined May 2005 ·
Vwcool,so does this mean you believe in subie motors.... all done a few conversions yourself?JVLRacing:oVWCOOL wrote:There is a reason why no other manugfacturer on the planet has taken up the rotary and mazda has only ever offered it in 'niche' models. They are actually horribly inefficient... Good specific power output for capacity/weight/size etc but efficiency is disgusting due to large surface area of combustion chambers etc etc. A Subie won't need rebuild for 300,000km at least with routine oil changes and proper (ie: not aftermarket) managementdubber91 wrote:to me the rotary is the way to go. The engine rebuilds are potentially easier (not necessarily cheaper) and working where i do (a test/proving track) i work with injection every day. I may even have a play with the fuel map and see what happens....
its says something, however, when one manufacturer, has spent around 12 year developing an engine, that is more efficient than any other conventional engine after a hundreds year development.
They arent better...but the potential is there i beleive...
Which PG? Anglesea? They're all fun!nn[ Edited on 15-7-2005 by VWCOOL ]
helbus Administrator Mad fabricator, paint and body
7,386 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·
I just like engine conversions to look neat and like they are meant to be there.
jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard
403 posts · joined May 2005 ·
Hi Pete,got any photos of bus with subie in it.It would be great to see!!!:thumbJVLRacingHelbus wrote:I just like engine conversions to look neat and like they are meant to be there.
71superbug The Itch Itcher
1,184 posts · joined May 2004 ·
i agree with dubber 91, rotarys have a bad rep..but with a bit of work they can be realiable enough.
sure if u pump 500+hp out of the things they wont last long..but then again..look at a hypo vw motor.
they dont last too long without rebuilds. and even then they cost the same amount to rebuild with less gains.
rotary is also the way i am going.
i also once said on Shoptalkforums..that the rotary will have more than enough torque to push a vw wherever it wants to go.
Anthony
sure if u pump 500+hp out of the things they wont last long..but then again..look at a hypo vw motor.
they dont last too long without rebuilds. and even then they cost the same amount to rebuild with less gains.
rotary is also the way i am going.
i also once said on Shoptalkforums..that the rotary will have more than enough torque to push a vw wherever it wants to go.
Anthony
jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard
403 posts · joined May 2005 ·
Ok,which Rotary would be the best to work with...especailly with the reliability 5oohp factor?JVLRacingl
71superbug The Itch Itcher
1,184 posts · joined May 2004 ·
a lot of rota ownerrs seem to have success with the 13bturbo. ????
obviously the newer the better.
im not sure what you mean by what you said jvl.
Anthony
obviously the newer the better.
im not sure what you mean by what you said jvl.
Anthony
jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard
403 posts · joined May 2005 ·
Anthony,I thought the 20B would be a better motor to work with then the 13B!JVLRacing71superbug wrote:a lot of rota ownerrs seem to have success with the 13bturbo. ????
obviously the newer the better.
im not sure what you mean by what you said jvl.
Anthony
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Maybe it is too large - physically and legally
Pay your debts, CxxT
helbus Administrator Mad fabricator, paint and body
7,386 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·
It is not far away now. I may have time to put the donk in next weekend. I am working hard at making stuff neat and factory looking. I want it too look like VW put it in there.
jvl054 wrote:Hi Pete,got any photos of bus with subie in it.It would be great to see!!!:thumbJVLRacingHelbus wrote:I just like engine conversions to look neat and like they are meant to be there.
71superbug The Itch Itcher
1,184 posts · joined May 2004 ·
the 20b is too large legally..definately..classed as a 4 litre for some reason.
also..the 13b would have much more of a following and more people in the know about it..hence me saying the 13bt would be the best one to work with.
Anthony
also..the 13b would have much more of a following and more people in the know about it..hence me saying the 13bt would be the best one to work with.
Anthony
dubber91 Casual Dubber
28 posts · joined Jun 2005 ·
mwahahahahahaha i love livin in the UK...... no laws on 20bs...
20 Bs are VERY rare, however. as i beleive they are 3 rotor. This also makes them a lot harder to fit in the stck rear end. A 13b will require trimming of the rear valance and will be very tight if you use eurothane mountings and dont just solid mount the gearbox. It is very close to the firewall, and it i likely that pulleys need to be fettled slightly to get the rear end in. The major issue for me at the moment (i need it ready by this tuesday) is induction design; it looks like im going to have to run decklid off for a while until i can CNC up some flanges to mount up an airfilter. I honestly beleive that this conversion can be done for less than £1000 sterling if you do it yourself. I dont know what that is in dollars.
I have spent time and money developing the proceedure though; getting mounts/brackets/flanges made up is easy, but i make sure the pattern is right in the first place. The rotary will look like VW put it in there. The exhaust can be made to fit under the rear valance, and theres pleanty of room when putting it in. The engine mounting point is th most difficult part to get looking stock. I think ive achieved it. I will have pictures shortly.
If it gets in on time, the conversion will have taken about 6 days solid work.
steve
20 Bs are VERY rare, however. as i beleive they are 3 rotor. This also makes them a lot harder to fit in the stck rear end. A 13b will require trimming of the rear valance and will be very tight if you use eurothane mountings and dont just solid mount the gearbox. It is very close to the firewall, and it i likely that pulleys need to be fettled slightly to get the rear end in. The major issue for me at the moment (i need it ready by this tuesday) is induction design; it looks like im going to have to run decklid off for a while until i can CNC up some flanges to mount up an airfilter. I honestly beleive that this conversion can be done for less than £1000 sterling if you do it yourself. I dont know what that is in dollars.
I have spent time and money developing the proceedure though; getting mounts/brackets/flanges made up is easy, but i make sure the pattern is right in the first place. The rotary will look like VW put it in there. The exhaust can be made to fit under the rear valance, and theres pleanty of room when putting it in. The engine mounting point is th most difficult part to get looking stock. I think ive achieved it. I will have pictures shortly.
If it gets in on time, the conversion will have taken about 6 days solid work.
steve
Man who stand with hand in pocket fel cocky all day
jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard
403 posts · joined May 2005 ·
Bring it on Steve!!!!:thumbshow us some photos of the rotor.JVLRacing
1303Steve Scirocco Rare
8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Hi
Im not sure how the NSW RTA works out the size on rotaries but they say "The engine capacity to be used for rotary engines is the displacement of all rotors x 2" So a 12A is 2400 cc and the 13B is 2600 cc, so I guess a 20B would be 4000 cc. Way to big for NSW rego and some other states.
dubber91, if your running IRS, move your tranny forward to give you more room.
Steve
Im not sure how the NSW RTA works out the size on rotaries but they say "The engine capacity to be used for rotary engines is the displacement of all rotors x 2" So a 12A is 2400 cc and the 13B is 2600 cc, so I guess a 20B would be 4000 cc. Way to big for NSW rego and some other states.
dubber91, if your running IRS, move your tranny forward to give you more room.
Steve
jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard
403 posts · joined May 2005 ·
Hi Steve,bloody cold up here,snowing up Guyra 2hrs from here.Anyway is Queensland RTA laws different to ours?JVLRacing1303Steve wrote:Hi
Im not sure how the NSW RTA works out the size on rotaries but they say "The engine capacity to be used for rotary engines is the displacement of all rotors x 2" So a 12A is 2400 cc and the 13B is 2600 cc, so I guess a 20B would be 4000 cc. Way to big for NSW rego and some other states.
dubber91, if your running IRS, move your tranny forward to give you more room.
Steve
1303Steve Scirocco Rare
8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Hi John
Im pretty sure that Qld uses the same rules as NSW. There is a move to make all states the same, dont know when it will happen. Weve got a Jetmaster open fire, I feel no pain.
Steve
Im pretty sure that Qld uses the same rules as NSW. There is a move to make all states the same, dont know when it will happen. Weve got a Jetmaster open fire, I feel no pain.
Steve
jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard
403 posts · joined May 2005 ·
I suppose best project for a 20B for a dub racecar.The fitting of the motor would be tight but with something like mind it could be done.The parts:o could be rare all hard to get your hands on i suppose.JVLRacing
dubber91 Casual Dubber
28 posts · joined Jun 2005 ·
parts are an issue. One vehicle to look out for i beleive is a mazda cosmo or cosmic....something along those lines.
I could potentially cut a large section from the firewall in front of the engine) and move the engine back, but i'd rather just trim the valance slightly. It will look more stock. My main issue are with radiator and ventilation. Im thinking of using the little horn grills to duct air onto the radiator...its certainly a possibility. Plus then the front scoop would be smaller and more factory looking. Ill get some pictures soon 🙂
Steve
I could potentially cut a large section from the firewall in front of the engine) and move the engine back, but i'd rather just trim the valance slightly. It will look more stock. My main issue are with radiator and ventilation. Im thinking of using the little horn grills to duct air onto the radiator...its certainly a possibility. Plus then the front scoop would be smaller and more factory looking. Ill get some pictures soon 🙂
Steve
Man who stand with hand in pocket fel cocky all day
seagull Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
4,979 posts · joined Dec 2003 ·
I think I have seen that mazda , the gear box is so light you can lift it ( with one finger ) seen it in a book .
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake
71superbug The Itch Itcher
1,184 posts · joined May 2004 ·
yeah its the cosmo 20b.....very hard to find over here..only a few around..and knoweledge of the things is even harder to find.......so 13b is definately the way to go......anyone know anybody selling any rotarys? whether they are 12a NA carby fed or 20bTT motors. anything inbetween would be good to know also.
would have to be in good runnning order.
Anthony
would have to be in good runnning order.
Anthony
dubber91 Casual Dubber
28 posts · joined Jun 2005 ·
i dont know of anybody, but i'll tell you now that 12as are the only ones that fit correctly into the engine bay. Ive just had to trim mine away (only a small amount though) around the lip of the engine bay. I have an early valance, aso i dont know about superbugs etc....
steve
steve
Man who stand with hand in pocket fel cocky all day
crewcabconnection Being Sid James
1,922 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·
r u talking split bus - where does the rad go? if not up front, outside...
Loves a lolcat
dubber91 Casual Dubber
28 posts · joined Jun 2005 ·
im talking bug....
Man who stand with hand in pocket fel cocky all day
jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard
403 posts · joined May 2005 ·
what model, year is that rotary from?JVLRacingdubber91 wrote:im talking bug....
dubber91 Casual Dubber
28 posts · joined Jun 2005 ·
a 1988 rx7. Non turbo. Its a 13b engine.
Man who stand with hand in pocket fel cocky all day
jvl054 Wolfsburg Wizard
403 posts · joined May 2005 ·
Do you think after doing your project that other people in the UK will do projects with rotors.......all subies still the way to go for projects? Any reason why you did not use a Turbo 13b?JVLRacingdubber91 wrote:a 1988 rx7. Non turbo. Its a 13b engine.
dubber91 Casual Dubber
28 posts · joined Jun 2005 ·
volksfolks over here tend to go with the subbie lump. Mainly because its a flat and works with vw gear ratios.
They are plentifull over here too.
I prefer the rotary engine; no valve noise! smooth as a smooth thing!
And they dont develop enough torque to kill gearboxes if you slip on the clutch.
Rx7s have a bad rep over here. See past that and people will do the conversion; its whether people can look past it thats the issue. I can get the adapters made up though.....
Steve
They are plentifull over here too.
I prefer the rotary engine; no valve noise! smooth as a smooth thing!
And they dont develop enough torque to kill gearboxes if you slip on the clutch.
Rx7s have a bad rep over here. See past that and people will do the conversion; its whether people can look past it thats the issue. I can get the adapters made up though.....
Steve
Man who stand with hand in pocket fel cocky all day
helbus Administrator Mad fabricator, paint and body
7,386 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·
Rotors are an aquired taste. I went passenger in my brother inlaws 12A powered Mazda and the smooth continual torque was great. It was like a huge elastic band was released and was pulling you towards it.