Philosophical question about Subaru conversions

Craig S · 2009-09-16T07:43:17+00:00

This isn’t a criticism of people who have converted because I’m very tempted to do so, but my head and heart are in disagreement. At the risk of over thinking things this is where I’m at. I have a 74 L Bug, which currently has the stock 1600, and I’m madly saving with the aim of one day making it a really nice daily driver (i.e. very strong/fast engine) that I can also use in club events etc. At present I drive it a couple of days a week. In my head there’s no argument, a EJ20T would be cheaper than a strong air cooled, more powerful, more reliable, more economical, quieter etc etc, and I should do the conversion, but my heart struggles with the idea. To my heart the aircooled flat four is intrinsic to what makes the car a VW. Despite the fact that the Subaru engine is essentially a modern interpretation of it, it still is fundamentally different. I can’t get past the fact that the aircooled engine is not just the heart of the car, but the soul as well. The question I keep asking myself is: If I want to put a EJ20T in the bug, why not just buy an old WRX, why put it in the bug? My question for those with a engine conversion is: What still makes it a VW for you, rather than a Subaru/whatever? Look forward to your thoughts! 🙂

gerrelt Slammed & Awesome Dubber

88 posts · joined May 2005 · 10 Sep 2010, 12:13 am

#801382

Is a Beetle still a 'real Beetle', when it is no longer driven by an air-cooled VW engine.

What do you think?

Yes, it's still a beetle. The engine is just the technical component that turns the gearbox input shaft.
Replace that, it's still a beetle, only more powerfull with less maintenance.

* With the amount of money some of us have poured into our old Volkswagen, perhaps we should have just bought an old 911 or WRX! 🙂

No, because that's definitely not a beetle! 😉

itawolf Casual Dubber

21 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 10 Sep 2010, 2:55 am

#801389

if it looks like a beetle --then its a beetle ---be it old or new ----

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 10 Sep 2010, 9:00 am

#801402

In some ways I find it hilarious that people get their knickers in a knot over people putting other boxers in the back of beetles. Afterall, boxers have never been strictly the domain of VWs, nor have VWs exibited the pinnacle of boxer development. Subaru and porsche really have that in the bag in the mass production sense. For that reason alone, a subaru in the back of a beetle as an upgrade is as many people have said, obvious and logical. Heck, to give people a similar comparison, Harley Davidson went to a watercooled engine on the V-Rod for all the same reasons we are using subarus.

On the other hand, it's not that surprising that VW owners are so pigheaded and difficult when it comes to change. It took them twenty years or so as a collective to start to accept the merits of mods on beetles. Not only that, but the man who oversaw production and upgrades, Heinz Nordorf was famous for his small minded attitude to extensive improvements and motorsport. For thirty years he had a flat ban on factory motorsport at VW. The only exceptions (eg. formula Vee and rallying) to that were by the hand of privateers outside the factory and relied on the sheer number of VW parts available. Now for the statement that will get me kicked off.

Beetles in their natural state handle awfully.

So please don't compare them to 911s. Although as Clarkson and his ilk have said many times, 911s had a reputation for being dangerous too. No plain engine swap is going to fix the beetle's natural strength but at the same time it's achile's heal. Rear engine. Good for traction and that's pretty much it.

SO in answer to this qu, is a beetle still a beetle with a subaru in the back? Yes it is, and it's still just as potentially awful. Just potentially awful in a faster and more reliable way. 😂

p.s. and I like beetles.

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

Jak Rizzo Insano Dub Head

837 posts · joined Apr 2004 · 10 Sep 2010, 9:18 am

#801409

When kids stop playing "punch buggy" when they see me coming down the road , it's then no longer a beetle.

Jak

PS my bug rules!

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 10 Sep 2010, 9:24 am

#801411

pete wood wrote:On the other hand, it's not that surprising that VW owners are so pigheaded and difficult when it comes to change.

NO wonder so many Wars were started over religion.....

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 10 Sep 2010, 10:26 am

#801419

Actually, my point was that VW allowed them to get the "change is bad" attitude well ingrained by changing very little about the beetle over the course of 20 years. People are still fighting over whether a US67' is better than a 68' or a 58' is better than a 60' when in both cases they are essentially the same car. The lack of change in the beetle through the 50s and 60s is only bettered by one company Fender Guitars. The strat they sell now is really not much different to the one released at the end of the 50s. In fact, if many people had their way it would be the same. It's the same attitude that calls 1302/3s 'fat chics' has people looking down their noses at late type3s. Crazy stuff, coz the type3 and the 1302/3 are better cars in so many ways.

So it's no wonder people seem to become physically ill/enraged at the thought of putting a modern engine in a beetle.

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

STIDUB Over it.

1,497 posts · joined Jun 2008 · 10 Sep 2010, 10:28 am

#801420

Jak Rizzo wrote:When kids stop playing "punch buggy" when they see me coming down the road , it's then no longer a beetle.

Jak

PS my bug rules!

jak, i feel this is the PERFECT answer to this question
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member 🙂

STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress

Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.

The above are personal views, no more, no less

bajachris88 The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 6

6,661 posts · joined Apr 2005 · 10 Sep 2010, 11:23 am

#801427

Heres a question...

if you put a 911 engine into a beetle, is it still a beetle 😂

I think the answer lies 'Each to their own"... its like fighting over whats the best colour in the rainbow.... although i say Blue... and if u don't like it.. then your wrong and a dam evil genocidal liar! 🙅

(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 10 Sep 2010, 9:15 pm

#801543

bajachris88 wrote:I think the answer lies 'Each to their own"... its like fighting over whats the best colour in the rainbow.... although i say Blue... and if u don't like it.. then your wrong and a dam evil genocidal liar! 🙅

For once chris,

I think you are right...

But don't worry, I'm sure it won't happen again. 😂

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

helbus Administrator Mad fabricator, paint and body

7,386 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 10 Sep 2010, 9:35 pm

#801548

Here are my angles on the discussion.

We have a modified and engineer approved Bay Bus with a Subaru EJ22. It was an 1800. It is great to have twice the power, a tenth of the maintenance, no tuning required, spare parts available new anywhere, and same fuel economy. To build a 140hp aircooled 1800 would be pretty expensive.

However. We also have a 71 Beetle, and I would not change it from aircooled. I love the simplicity, history, coolness, sound etc. The available economically priced performance options for aircooled would make it easy to change the motor to twice the power. To build a 100hp aircooled Type 1 engine would be very available, easy, and pretty quick in a Beetle.

EJ22 into Bay Microbus - Finished project build thread- click on this spot here for info

helbus Administrator Mad fabricator, paint and body

7,386 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 10 Sep 2010, 9:38 pm

#801549

pete wood wrote:It's the same attitude that calls 1302/3s 'fat chics' has people looking down their noses at late type3s. Crazy stuff, coz the type3 and the 1302/3 are better cars in so many ways.

Like comparing Late Bay busses to lowlights.

If some people had their way, only Split and Oval Beetles and Split Busses would be in.

EJ22 into Bay Microbus - Finished project build thread- click on this spot here for info

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 10 Sep 2010, 10:42 pm

#801562

helbus wrote:However. We also have a 71 Beetle, and I would not change it from aircooled. I love the simplicity, history, coolness, sound etc. The available economically priced performance options for aircooled would make it easy to change the motor to twice the power. To build a 100hp aircooled Type 1 engine would be very available, easy, and pretty quick in a Beetle.

Yes, but would you be happy with 100hp?

I think that's where most people fall over. Why have 100hp when I can have 150hp for the same money? (or so it seems)

btw, 100hp well used can be very quick. 👍

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

helbus Administrator Mad fabricator, paint and body

7,386 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 10 Sep 2010, 11:00 pm

#801564

pete wood wrote:
helbus wrote:However. We also have a 71 Beetle, and I would not change it from aircooled. I love the simplicity, history, coolness, sound etc. The available economically priced performance options for aircooled would make it easy to change the motor to twice the power. To build a 100hp aircooled Type 1 engine would be very available, easy, and pretty quick in a Beetle.
Yes, but would you be happy with 100hp?

I think that's where most people fall over. Why have 100hp when I can have 150hp for the same money? (or so it seems)

btw, 100hp well used can be very quick. 👍

I think 100hp Beetle motor would be pretty economical compared to a Subaru Beetle conversion. Beetles have a few more mods required to get a Subaru, and more engineering required. A bay Bus (I have done it) only needs the engine. No body mods, no brake mods, no gearbox mods.

Granted that a Beetle Subaru engine conversion would have a serious amount of power available, but in Victoria now under the VASS scheme using VSB14 would make it quite an engineering job. Look them up on Google search. Beetles would cost more than a Bus to engineer.

EJ22 into Bay Microbus - Finished project build thread- click on this spot here for info

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 11 Sep 2010, 9:42 am

#801594

helbus wrote:I think 100hp Beetle motor would be pretty economical compared to a Subaru Beetle conversion. Beetles have a few more mods required to get a Subaru, and more engineering required. A bay Bus (I have done it) only needs the engine. No body mods, no brake mods, no gearbox mods.

Wanna place a bet on that? 😂

The amount of work involved beetle vs kombi conversion is on a par.
Both need a radiator install, same electrical work and same exhaust system etc.
I didnt have have to custom build an engine support like a kombi needs, just a Kafer bar which is something any bug with more than 100hp should have anyway
Unless you fit an EJ25 all the SOHC engines fit the bug body with no mods, just notch the valance corners to get the engine in or i just unpicked welds so it could be removed to get it in.
Stock gearbox suits the engine pefectly and stock brakes would also be fine, I already had 4 wheel discs anyway but Ian and Joshs WRX bugs were engineered with stock bug brakes

We'll assume thats 100hp at the flywheel which like Craig said is shitloads in a bug and enough to keep most people happy
If you pick up the phone to old Stan (allow min 1hr) or any other reputable builder and ask them for a 100hp engine you'll be very lucky to get out of it for under $7k
It'll make a for a nice drivable engine but i bet you'll be hard pressed to get better than 11-12L/100km in the city, and lifespan doesnt reflect the price tag

The biggest problem with trying to build a performance vw engine that lasts these days is the quality or lack of in the aftermarket world if you don't want to give up your first born
Especially when all the tight arses and new comers who don't know any different yet keep companys like Empi afloat
I'd rather push my bug everywhere than build an engine using inferior quality taiwanese parts which is one of the main reasons I gave up on performance VW engines

My last 1776 motor I built for my bug cost me around $4.5k just for the parts and head work and that was over 4 years ago
It was never dynoed but would be around 80-90hp atfw, to get up over 100hp woulda been $5k+

My subi conversion if you take out the cost of the second engine i had to buy which is an exercise most people dont usually have to go through owes me $3.5K all done and engineered
Nearly 1K of that was just the sump and ECU wiring both things I could have done myself but am really glad I didn't
You can't even buy one of those cruddy mexican crate motors for that now.

The engine stock was 100kw so add in a free flowing intake, hi-flow cat and exhaust and it's around the 150hp mark
If i really push it around town the worst I've got is 9.2L/100 but my average is 8.5-8.7 with mosty stop/start driving and 7.1L on the highway
not bad considering a stock EJ22 Liberty which is over 300kg heavier gets 10.3 city, 6.9 highway and 8.8 average

Dunno how vics engineer certs work but mine was $350 but it's all money for nothing

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 11 Sep 2010, 10:44 am

#801600

Actually, you might have a point Joel. If I remember correctly, Damo's beetle with a 1776 puts out 100rwhp and it's chock a block full of every exotic berg bit he could find. There is no way you could do those heads for under a couple of grand just in labor. Now I know there's a diff between flywheel hp and rw hp but even still. Also, my understanding is that beetles only need beefier rear brakes and front discs for a conversion. For a late car, they have half of that stock. I have type 3 drums and discs up front and the engineer was happy with that. Might be a little different with an EJ20T, but with an Atmo motor you don't need anything beyond a single side plate box and a little mechanical sympathy. My cert for the whole buggy was $600. Which is pretty good these days I think.

P.s. It just occurred to me today that the beetle pic at the top of AVD has porsche wheels on it. I find it ironic that certain things from other manufacturers are accepted, even encouraged, but others are looked down on from a great height. Imagine if Subaru started loosing cash and VW bought the company (happened with other car companies). What would the scene say about our conversions then? 🤓

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

helbus Administrator Mad fabricator, paint and body

7,386 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 11 Sep 2010, 1:32 pm

#801619

Our bus with the EJ22 span the dyno rollers with 101hp at the back treads. (140'ish at the flywheel was quoted engine power)

The radiator is definitely easier in a bus, being underneath. Ours has been there for 5 years now

I would be very happy with a Beetle running a flywheel 100hp motor.

Engineering in Victoria under the VASS scheme starts at $800.

EJ22 into Bay Microbus - Finished project build thread- click on this spot here for info

Jak Rizzo Insano Dub Head

837 posts · joined Apr 2004 · 11 Sep 2010, 5:40 pm

#801641

When I was dropping my kids to school one morning this week, my daughter was getting out of the back & a little boy from her class walked past & said to her "Sik Beetle Rizzo"😂

enough said really.

Jak

mactaylor Custom Title Time!

1,005 posts · joined Aug 2007 · 12 Sep 2010, 6:52 am

#801690

fully sik rizzo!!!!

EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
1800 552 123

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 12 Sep 2010, 9:07 am

#801699

Jak Rizzo wrote:When I was dropping my kids to school one morning this week, my daughter was getting out of the back & a little boy from her class walked past & said to her "Sik Beetle Rizzo"😂

enough said really.

Jak

that's awesome 😂

see, kids know best.

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

Hutcho Wolfsburg Wizard

528 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 13 Sep 2010, 9:18 pm

#802102

Jak Rizzo wrote:When I was dropping my kids to school one morning this week, my daughter was getting out of the back & a little boy from her class walked past & said to her "Sik Beetle Rizzo"😂

enough said really.

Jak

Indeed, mate.

Subaru took a great idea with the boxer engine configuration........ and made it better.

Jak Rizzo Insano Dub Head

837 posts · joined Apr 2004 · 13 Sep 2010, 9:43 pm

#802117

Strangely enough, the most acceptance that my car ever had was with the Porsche club. I was very surprised that they were so positive about it. Infact, I lost count of the number of Porsche drivers that told me that Porsche designed the engine for the WRX & that Volkswagen own the patent for it & that it would seem a natural progression to put a wrx flat 4 in my beetle.
True? Don't know.

Jak

hellbugged 48's and straight cuts

5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 · 13 Sep 2010, 9:48 pm

#802118

lucky i never have anything intelligent to say.......driving an aircooled 100hp beetle daily and racing a WRX notch whenever possible, i might have actually contributed something....🙁

Tonz Magonz Officially Full-On Dubber

201 posts · joined Apr 2005 · 15 Sep 2010, 12:07 pm

#802427

helbus wrote:Our bus with the EJ22 span the dyno rollers with 101hp at the back treads. (140'ish at the flywheel was quoted engine power)

The radiator is definitely easier in a bus, being underneath. Ours has been there for 5 years now

I would be very happy with a Beetle running a flywheel 100hp motor.

Engineering in Victoria under the VASS scheme starts at $800.

I'm contemplating a similar conversion for a '67 splittie bus and was wondering if you could recommend a Melbourne based company for the conversion..
Regards Tony

kombibob AKA: Volkswagen Type 2 Transporter Van Robert

1,698 posts · joined May 2004 · 15 Sep 2010, 3:22 pm

#802459

just have a go tony, heaps of info around now and its really not that hard
even if you get half way and pay someone to do the rest.
just do what i did and pester someone thats done it with heaps of questions 🙂

1961 swb buggy
1960 karmann ghia
1963 Single Cab: "El Concreto"
1963 bent 23 window " Frieda Samba "
1963 Eriba Faun camper " Cara Van daCamp"
2012 Skoda Octavia scout

Get down low and go,go,go

helbus Administrator Mad fabricator, paint and body

7,386 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 15 Sep 2010, 6:14 pm

#802492

Ratmuller wrote:
helbus wrote:Our bus with the EJ22 span the dyno rollers with 101hp at the back treads. (140'ish at the flywheel was quoted engine power)

The radiator is definitely easier in a bus, being underneath. Ours has been there for 5 years now

I would be very happy with a Beetle running a flywheel 100hp motor.

Engineering in Victoria under the VASS scheme starts at $800.
I'm contemplating a similar conversion for a '67 splittie bus and was wondering if you could recommend a Melbourne based company for the conversion..
Regards Tony

I could do it for you start to finish. That is who I recommend. PM me.

EJ22 into Bay Microbus - Finished project build thread- click on this spot here for info

Tonz Magonz Officially Full-On Dubber

201 posts · joined Apr 2005 · 19 Sep 2010, 4:32 pm

#803132

Thanks for the encouragement Bob but still need to decide on which motor..?
I like the idea of the suby 3.3 flat six but not sure of the pros and cons yet..
More research required ..
PM Sent Helbus..
Thanks
Tony

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 19 Sep 2010, 8:51 pm

#803184

Ratmuller, I'd be looking for a later H6 if I were you. The EG(?)30 has the same or more power and is a much newer engine. In fact, if you hold off for a little, I think you'll find a lot of them coming onto the market just like the EJ25 has recently.

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

Tonz Magonz Officially Full-On Dubber

201 posts · joined Apr 2005 · 1 Oct 2010, 9:53 am

#805129

Thanks Pete,
Will take your advice on board and keep an eye out for what's out there.
I'll be selling a dc bay ute to finance this conversion so the available funds will partially determine which motor I go for..
Cheers Tony
Aka Tonz Magonz on Dsk and Melburgluft..

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 1 Oct 2010, 11:16 pm

#805233

Ah Tonz, you old devil.

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

Tonz Magonz Officially Full-On Dubber

201 posts · joined Apr 2005 · 6 Oct 2010, 12:19 pm

#806061

Pete,

would you be Andys brother...?