PAZZAN Wolfsburg Wizard
592 posts · joined Jan 2008 ·
isn't the old saying, its not how much you got but how you use what you got😵
Jezebel's next evolution - Haltech EFI [dyno chart up 5/10]
cnfabo Custom Title Time!
1,353 posts · joined Apr 2008 ·
can someone explain how the AFR works,,,, that flat spot "44 idf green line" between 80kmh-113kmh, does that mean its running lean?? it dips up and down a lot even with the ingection...i thought u can tune that out with FI so it has a good AFR reading....daah me stupid.....and what is a good AFR reading...
it seems the 44 idf still made more hp in certain area's.....
anyways hope u got good nappies with your new powerful donk......
it seems the 44 idf still made more hp in certain area's.....
anyways hope u got good nappies with your new powerful donk......
matberry Moderator Go hard or go home
8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·
My intepretation, is the dip is where the engine itself has some small area that lacks something, whether it's manifold length, exhaust design, port work or about a million other posibilities. The efi has smothed the power delivery in that area, so I'd reckon Dave would be stoked.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Sides Veteran Volks Folk
2,220 posts · joined May 2007 ·
Yeah - pretty much what Matt's said - tho I don't know that stoked is a strong enough term for it !!!
😂
The basic aim is to get the smoothest AF curve that gives the best & smoothest power curve, obviously while staying within safe limits. Somewhere around 12 - 12.5:1 under WOT I think is the target, with it varying both up and down from that depending on load, throttle etc. At cruise along a flat level road you want to be closer to 14.7:1 for example.
With the IDF's there were big issues where the engine hadn't yet come onto the cam... no matter what combination of jets and vents we tried, to get a good AFR at the top end would result in a horrible richness in that mid range. The flat line is where it's gone so rich the sensor can't read it... basically below 10:1. The compromise then was to stick with the combination that gave the best power curve, and just drive around the mid-range hole.
With the EFI you get a lot more precise control over things, but the ECU needs all the lookup tables populated wiith the right values for that specific engine combo, and that can take a LOT of time to get right.
I've really only just started on the process, but spend enough time at it and you could have your AFR curve dead flat right across the rev range at any combination of throttle, temperature etc. V8 Supercar and Formula 1 teams spend hundreds if not thousands of hours on the dyno getting their maps spot on... car manufacturers probably spend even more. That's what "chipping" a modern car is about... you're changing the map, so altering the compromise that the manufacturer settled on.
The curve I have up there is from the power run that was done when we had the base fuel table in. There was more fine tuning done after that, including things like adding in more fuel when you jump on the throttle to get rid of the lean spike, taking a bit of fuel out where it was over rich etc.... just I didn't bother doing another power run after all that since we didn't touch the top end.
Finally, the Haltech can log all of this out for me to look at later and then make as many adjustments as I like, so it can become a continual tweaking process without having to go back to the dyno all the time... and being an IT Geek, I love that analyze, tweak, re-analyze sort of process.
😀 😀 😀
😂
The basic aim is to get the smoothest AF curve that gives the best & smoothest power curve, obviously while staying within safe limits. Somewhere around 12 - 12.5:1 under WOT I think is the target, with it varying both up and down from that depending on load, throttle etc. At cruise along a flat level road you want to be closer to 14.7:1 for example.
With the IDF's there were big issues where the engine hadn't yet come onto the cam... no matter what combination of jets and vents we tried, to get a good AFR at the top end would result in a horrible richness in that mid range. The flat line is where it's gone so rich the sensor can't read it... basically below 10:1. The compromise then was to stick with the combination that gave the best power curve, and just drive around the mid-range hole.
With the EFI you get a lot more precise control over things, but the ECU needs all the lookup tables populated wiith the right values for that specific engine combo, and that can take a LOT of time to get right.
I've really only just started on the process, but spend enough time at it and you could have your AFR curve dead flat right across the rev range at any combination of throttle, temperature etc. V8 Supercar and Formula 1 teams spend hundreds if not thousands of hours on the dyno getting their maps spot on... car manufacturers probably spend even more. That's what "chipping" a modern car is about... you're changing the map, so altering the compromise that the manufacturer settled on.
The curve I have up there is from the power run that was done when we had the base fuel table in. There was more fine tuning done after that, including things like adding in more fuel when you jump on the throttle to get rid of the lean spike, taking a bit of fuel out where it was over rich etc.... just I didn't bother doing another power run after all that since we didn't touch the top end.
Finally, the Haltech can log all of this out for me to look at later and then make as many adjustments as I like, so it can become a continual tweaking process without having to go back to the dyno all the time... and being an IT Geek, I love that analyze, tweak, re-analyze sort of process.
😀 😀 😀
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Sides Veteran Volks Folk
2,220 posts · joined May 2007 ·
Wow - sometimes I write a lot of words, don't I !!!
😊
😊
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
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Jak Rizzo Insano Dub Head
837 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·
no , we hardly ever hear from u, where have u been? 😂Sides wrote:Wow - sometimes I write a lot of words, don't I !!!
😊
Jak
PS Dave, re the hp comments, my theory is, if u keep using the same dyno all the time, then the changes /increases in hp are relevant. There are people out there that drive around to find a dyno that will give them the figure that they want. Don't get bogged down (get it, bogged down) with your drag times, your car is built for other purposes. Put your engine in one of those drag/street? cars, the drag times would be completely different.
cnfabo Custom Title Time!
1,353 posts · joined Apr 2008 ·
interesting ,i know fakall about this stuff dave its all way over my head....one day!!! if u dont mind me asking,how much for all the efi setup....Sides wrote:Yeah - pretty much what Matt's said - tho I don't know that stoked is a strong enough term for it !!!
😂
The basic aim is to get the smoothest AF curve that gives the best & smoothest power curve, obviously while staying within safe limits. Somewhere around 12 - 12.5:1 under WOT I think is the target, with it varying both up and down from that depending on load, throttle etc. At cruise along a flat level road you want to be closer to 14.7:1 for example.
With the IDF's there were big issues where the engine hadn't yet come onto the cam... no matter what combination of jets and vents we tried, to get a good AFR at the top end would result in a horrible richness in that mid range. The flat line is where it's gone so rich the sensor can't read it... basically below 10:1. The compromise then was to stick with the combination that gave the best power curve, and just drive around the mid-range hole.
With the EFI you get a lot more precise control over things, but the ECU needs all the lookup tables populated wiith the right values for that specific engine combo, and that can take a LOT of time to get right.
I've really only just started on the process, but spend enough time at it and you could have your AFR curve dead flat right across the rev range at any combination of throttle, temperature etc. V8 Supercar and Formula 1 teams spend hundreds if not thousands of hours on the dyno getting their maps spot on... car manufacturers probably spend even more. That's what "chipping" a modern car is about... you're changing the map, so altering the compromise that the manufacturer settled on.
The curve I have up there is from the power run that was done when we had the base fuel table in. There was more fine tuning done after that, including things like adding in more fuel when you jump on the throttle to get rid of the lean spike, taking a bit of fuel out where it was over rich etc.... just I didn't bother doing another power run after all that since we didn't touch the top end.
Finally, the Haltech can log all of this out for me to look at later and then make as many adjustments as I like, so it can become a continual tweaking process without having to go back to the dyno all the time... and being an IT Geek, I love that analyze, tweak, re-analyze sort of process.
😀 😀 😀
Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
Yep completely agree. The use of the Dyno is to measure changes made, and to confirm whether you are going forward or backwards with your development.......clearly the injection and Twin Plugs has moved the engine forward from its previous setup.Jak Rizzo wrote:PS Dave, re the hp comments, my theory is, if u keep using the same dyno all the time, then the changes /increases in hp are relevant. There are people out there that drive around to find a dyno that will give them the figure that they want. different.Sides wrote:Wow - sometimes I write a lot of words, don't I !!!
😊
BUT, if you want to claim how much HP a motor produces then you need to back it up with a drag run.
Weigh the car, run it down the strip and see what MPH you get.........its simple physics, regardless of what the "purpose" of the car is for and what your ET is.
The EFI will certainly give you a great advantage in tuning and getting the best out of your combination 😎
As Chris has asked, what is the cost ?
I'm assuming around $4500- $5000 all up?
Sides Veteran Volks Folk
2,220 posts · joined May 2007 ·
Yup - agree with most of that Craig... I'm doing this whole thing to have more fun, not claim any particular hp number or whatever.
Drag racing isn't my thing, but yeah - I'll definitely take Jezzi out to Willowbank at some point like Reub's suggested. Not out of a need to prove anything - just as part of my learning/experimenting and also doing stuff with the rest of the Volksy dude's around Brissie.
$$$ wise you're about right. Depends a bit on what you do and don't count as part of the job... I've done things like converting to alternator, setting up a new breather system etc. in the process which others may not. Also depends on how much you do yourself compared to letting the dyno guy do it for you.
Obviously simplifying the setup would get the $$$ down lower too:
Drag racing isn't my thing, but yeah - I'll definitely take Jezzi out to Willowbank at some point like Reub's suggested. Not out of a need to prove anything - just as part of my learning/experimenting and also doing stuff with the rest of the Volksy dude's around Brissie.
$$$ wise you're about right. Depends a bit on what you do and don't count as part of the job... I've done things like converting to alternator, setting up a new breather system etc. in the process which others may not. Also depends on how much you do yourself compared to letting the dyno guy do it for you.
Obviously simplifying the setup would get the $$$ down lower too:
- less fancy/different ECU, or even a DIY type such as a MegaSquirt
- running wasted spark rather than direct fire (less coils, a cheaper ignitor, no need for sync-ref/home sensor setup)
- less optimally sized injectors (oddly going for say 400cc injectors over the 315's would save a couple hundred bucks)
- single throttle body instead of duals
- simpler fuel system (e.g. an internal swirl pot style would only need a single pump and filter)
- simpler plumbing rather than AN stuff
- plus a whole heap of other things I haven't thought of...
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
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'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners
Join a car club - get car peeps
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'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
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Sides Veteran Volks Folk
2,220 posts · joined May 2007 ·
Heh heh - no-one likes a smart @rse Jak !!!
😂
But yeah - ta for comments dude. It's been ton of fun getting it to this point, and I'm stoked with the result so far... and obviously some more fun for me to have with in there still...
👍
😂
But yeah - ta for comments dude. It's been ton of fun getting it to this point, and I'm stoked with the result so far... and obviously some more fun for me to have with in there still...
👍
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners
Gracey Wolfsburg Wizard
511 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·
Kudos Dave for getting the injection up and running in such a short time.
From what I can see the twin plugs must be doing wonders for your engine in the lower to mid rev range as your fuel curve at those revs still needs a lot of work.
Should be a sweet running combo once the fuel curve is optimized.
From what I can see the twin plugs must be doing wonders for your engine in the lower to mid rev range as your fuel curve at those revs still needs a lot of work.
Should be a sweet running combo once the fuel curve is optimized.
hellbugged 48's and straight cuts
5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·
❓ how you figure thatGracey wrote:From what I can see the twin plugs must be doing wonders for your engine in the lower to mid rev range as your fuel curve at those revs still needs a lot of work.
Gracey Wolfsburg Wizard
511 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·
hellbugged wrote:❓ how you figure thatGracey wrote:From what I can see the twin plugs must be doing wonders for your engine in the lower to mid rev range as your fuel curve at those revs still needs a lot of work.
Personal experience, I have a 1916 with a Pobjoy cam that starts at about 4200rpm (similar to Dave's) it's also twin plugged with wedge port heads and 44 idf's.
Just like Dave's car my car goes super rich before it comes on cam (the motor doesn't care if it's injected or carbs) rich is rich.
Without twin plugs the motor doesn't have much bottom end due to cam overlap etc causing excessive richness, by adding twin plugs suddenly the same motor with the same jetting has fantastic low end power.
Hence the reason I think the twin plugs are doing wonders for his motor in it's current state of tune.
Andrew
hellbugged 48's and straight cuts
5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·
cool thanx.....i see a lot more work in that fuel curve via programming to be done........the motor seems to react alot to slight deviations in the air/fuel ratio.
love the way the funky HP curve corresponds directly with air/fuel devos in the graph tho.
be great to see it optimised and the relavant "flattening" of the power curve as a result in the future.really looking at it i think the injection will make more power right through
as Dave has noted, it will be a long long haul and the logging of the haltech will come into it's own once he gets some good miles under his belt and some experience manipulating ALL it's options.
ceratinly off to a good start
love the way the funky HP curve corresponds directly with air/fuel devos in the graph tho.
be great to see it optimised and the relavant "flattening" of the power curve as a result in the future.really looking at it i think the injection will make more power right through
as Dave has noted, it will be a long long haul and the logging of the haltech will come into it's own once he gets some good miles under his belt and some experience manipulating ALL it's options.
ceratinly off to a good start
Gracey Wolfsburg Wizard
511 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·
I agree, once he gets the fuel curve optimised it should result in a very flat usable power curve.hellbugged wrote:cool thanx.....i see a lot more work in that fuel curve via programming to be done........the motor seems to react alot to slight deviations in the air/fuel ratio.
be great to see it optimised and the relavant "flattening" of the power curve as a result in the future.
as Dave has noted, it will be a long long haul and the logging of the haltech will come into it's own once he gets some good miles under his belt and some experience manipulating all it's options.
ceratinly off to a good start
I have to admit that I didn't realise how much work/time is involved in programming an injection system!
Don't some of the computers have a self tune function?
Or is this just for the initial tune?
vassy66T1 Wow ... are U reading this?
2,120 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Hey Dave
It is all looking very good. Well done.
By the way, remind me not to publish my dyno chart when I build my engine .... geez 🙄
Let me know when you are fronting up to Mt Cotton again. 🙂
It is all looking very good. Well done.
By the way, remind me not to publish my dyno chart when I build my engine .... geez 🙄
Let me know when you are fronting up to Mt Cotton again. 🙂
Sides Veteran Volks Folk
2,220 posts · joined May 2007 ·
Yeah, agreed - it's a good start, but definitely more to do. I've already started marrying up the base fuel map to the power curve and can see a few tweaks to make.
👍
Gracey - yep, the ECU has got quite a few functions to make it faster to tune:
[*]first and simplest you can put it in closed loop where it compares the actual AF to a target AF table you put in, and then adjusts injector timing on the fly to suit. This is basically what most modern street cars do.
[*]second there's a "Quick Tune" function, where you select a cell or group of cells in the base map, and have it on-demand set things based on an averaging function that gets saved into the map
[*]third there's the "linearise" function, where you enter a value for say 5000 rpm 50% throttle and another for 2000 rpm 50% throttle, and then it averages to put values in the cells in between
[*]finally the anal techie rev-head method of putting in the values for each cell yourself, then making small adjustments up and down to get it spot on.
The map I have running now is a combination of the last 2 methods.
Marcus - nah, it's all good dude. I love the experimentation/learning aspect of it all !!!
👍
Next event for me is Stanthorpe Sprints 23-24 Oct, then Mt Cotton the following weekend 30-31 Oct...
👍
Gracey - yep, the ECU has got quite a few functions to make it faster to tune:
[*]first and simplest you can put it in closed loop where it compares the actual AF to a target AF table you put in, and then adjusts injector timing on the fly to suit. This is basically what most modern street cars do.
[*]second there's a "Quick Tune" function, where you select a cell or group of cells in the base map, and have it on-demand set things based on an averaging function that gets saved into the map
[*]third there's the "linearise" function, where you enter a value for say 5000 rpm 50% throttle and another for 2000 rpm 50% throttle, and then it averages to put values in the cells in between
[*]finally the anal techie rev-head method of putting in the values for each cell yourself, then making small adjustments up and down to get it spot on.
The map I have running now is a combination of the last 2 methods.
Marcus - nah, it's all good dude. I love the experimentation/learning aspect of it all !!!
👍
Next event for me is Stanthorpe Sprints 23-24 Oct, then Mt Cotton the following weekend 30-31 Oct...
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners
Snap Crackle Bang Seriously Crusin Dubber
146 posts · joined Aug 2009 ·
Waiting that long to hit the track "may" cause cancer!
Bring it to the IWMAC day/night autocross next Saturday night! It should have enough power to be "interesting" on the dirt track!
Bring it to the IWMAC day/night autocross next Saturday night! It should have enough power to be "interesting" on the dirt track!
Gracey Wolfsburg Wizard
511 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·
Thanks for the injection info Dave.
Okay, so besides taking heaps longer to tune and taking a heap more work, what's the benefit to tuning the way your doing it?
Does it give you a more controlled or accurate map than say the quick tune method?
Okay, so besides taking heaps longer to tune and taking a heap more work, what's the benefit to tuning the way your doing it?
Does it give you a more controlled or accurate map than say the quick tune method?
Sides Veteran Volks Folk
2,220 posts · joined May 2007 ·
Yeah, no wories Gracey.
Basically the level of control would be the main thing.
I've heard good and bad about the Quick Tune mode on the Haltech... unfortunately couldn't try it out on the dyno the other day, as had to pull my AF sensor to put the dyno one in (their snorkel setup didn't like the bend on the end of my muffler).
From what I understand the Quick Tune's main use is on dyno's... it does the averaging thing in real time rather than from a saved log... whereas the method I'm using you can take a log, analyze and think about it and then apply the change.
Basically the level of control would be the main thing.
I've heard good and bad about the Quick Tune mode on the Haltech... unfortunately couldn't try it out on the dyno the other day, as had to pull my AF sensor to put the dyno one in (their snorkel setup didn't like the bend on the end of my muffler).
From what I understand the Quick Tune's main use is on dyno's... it does the averaging thing in real time rather than from a saved log... whereas the method I'm using you can take a log, analyze and think about it and then apply the change.
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners
danny m Casual Dubber
36 posts · joined Jun 2009 ·
Hey Dave, to be competitive at a Mt Cotton should the hp figure started with a 2
Danny
Danny
Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
hehehe.......and your surname needs to start with a M !danny m wrote:Hey Dave, to be competitive at a Mt Cotton should the hp figure started with a 2
Danny
vassy66T1 Wow ... are U reading this?
2,120 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
How heavy is that car of yours Danny??? 😏
danny m Casual Dubber
36 posts · joined Jun 2009 ·
The new car is 959kg's which is too much but I've got some things in the works to get some weight out of it then then theres me of course, but then again the engine and gearbox make up for the drawbacks
Danny
Danny
Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
Get on a treadmill Danny........I reckon you could save 30kg there easy !!!! 😂😉
vassy66T1 Wow ... are U reading this?
2,120 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Cheers for the info Danny.
So around the 160rwhp and a bit under 800kg should be some good numbers 😵
So around the 160rwhp and a bit under 800kg should be some good numbers 😵
danny m Casual Dubber
36 posts · joined Jun 2009 ·
vassy66T1 wrote:Cheers for the info Danny.
So around the 160rwhp and a bit under 800kg should be some good numbers 😵
That would be reasonable but I'd reckon 959k's and close on 100 more hp would be more fun and yes Craig 30 would be the go but theres still more squirt to be had and if they let me use all 6 gears (although the box wiegh a couple more kg's with 6th back inside) like the rumour I keep hearing of I can stay 'healthy' for a little longer!
Danny
vassy66T1 Wow ... are U reading this?
2,120 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Freak Danny ... how much rear wheel power?
danny m Casual Dubber
36 posts · joined Jun 2009 ·
On a Dyno dynamics it spat out 254 @8800
T25Turbo Slammed & Awesome Dubber
96 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·
Dave,
Good to see you and Jezzi are still going strong. would love to catch you at Warwick next year (2011) I have booked leave so hope to see you there. Dad was telling me you had new EFI and well, here it is. He also tells me you need a hydraulic lifter on your trailer, or some lifted suspension for Jez. :-) Say hi to the other guys who were at Warwick 2007 for me.
Luke D
Good to see you and Jezzi are still going strong. would love to catch you at Warwick next year (2011) I have booked leave so hope to see you there. Dad was telling me you had new EFI and well, here it is. He also tells me you need a hydraulic lifter on your trailer, or some lifted suspension for Jez. :-) Say hi to the other guys who were at Warwick 2007 for me.
Luke D