| [ Total Views: 2170 | Total Replies: 53 | Thread Id: 77244 ] |
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 polak
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 posted on June 17th, 2009 at 04:35 PM |
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Nitrous? Turbo? Supercharger?
thought id ask you all about you opinions about induction. i am torn between turbo, nitrous and supercharger. they all have their upsides and they all
have their downsides, maybe kicking off a debate on the forum will help me make a decision in which road to take.
im running a 1776 (will eventually go bigger but i wanna see how much i can get out of this motor 1st), for arguments sake, lets assume i already have
a suitable bottom end, heads and will have a cam custom ground to suit any of the 3 choices, what are/have been your experiences and which would you
choose and why.
VW - helping put oil back into the ground for over 60 years |
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pete wood
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| posted on June 17th, 2009 at 04:48 PM |
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turbo. more efficent than a supercharger and not illegal like nitrous.
get this book and have a read first... http://www.amazon.com/Turbochargers-HP49-Books-Spark-Ignition-Applications/dp...
obviously, efi/intercooled is better but drawthrough can be good too.
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sander288
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| posted on June 17th, 2009 at 04:54 PM |
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turbo would be better and more readily availalbe for VW applications
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Joel
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| posted on June 17th, 2009 at 05:02 PM |
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they all have there pros and cons as u say
ive never played with NOS and probably never will but after building turbo and supercharged vw engines i found heat was a biggest problem with the
turbo
the bloke that has my turbo kit now setup an intercooler and is having a bit more luck than me but had to pull the CR down so far that its a dog off
boost
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Baja Wes
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| posted on June 17th, 2009 at 05:56 PM |
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I think a supercharger is more suited to a VW motor as it doesn't put such a high heat load into the exhaust ports like a turbo does. Hot exhaust
ports will kill VW heads.
Porsche used a different head design on their early engines, with the exhaust valve kicked out on an angle to allow air flow between the intake and
exhaust ports in the head. Then when they went turbo they used ceramic liners in the exhaust ports. VW's have none of those features.
Modern design superchargers (belt driven turbo style) are very efficient and not that far off turbos, but they cost big $$$$.
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type3lover
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| posted on June 17th, 2009 at 06:35 PM |
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I'm no expert mate, but this is what I came up with:
I was going to try a draw through supercharger. When set up properly I think it would be a solid option. The toyota type blowers (which I was going to
buy) are a positive displacement arrangement which basically means they push large volumes of air without compressing it (thus heatnig it)
significantly. This really helps keep intake temps down. Drawbacks I read about were that many superchargers (the vane type) do not like to have fuel
run through them and wear more quickly. Also boost is more limited but at least you have it on tap from idle. Not a great deal of fabrication required
to set it up...ask Joel he did it!
I am intrigued by nitrous...is it illegal on the street? Boooo!
Finally I went with turbo efi. Reasons being that everything can be managed and controlled by a computer (ecu) and therefore if programmed correctly
you will have precise control of fuel delivery, spark timing and boost for any given engine speed or load (and temperature!). I'm still setting my
installation up. Obviously it is only as good as the tuning job. You should definitely also run an intercooler on an aircooled turbocharged engine.
Heat is the enemy!! There are heaps of options available for efi depending on what you're after. Lowered compression ratio is a must. I use shims
under the cylinders and "semi hemi" stock type 3 heads. My setup is mainly for torque and will be purely a daily driver. 12psig boost and hopefully
160hp should be achievable and be reliable. It's also a 1776 :-)
Centrifugal superchargers (basically a belt driven turbo) are just as Wes said. Efficient but they cost big $$$$!
I'm probably talking crap though...will be keeping an eye on this thread :-) Hope to learn more too!!
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type3vw
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| posted on June 17th, 2009 at 08:04 PM |
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mmmm NOS, go nitrous you can make your fuel jet a bit bigger in the fogger to run on a safer side. you can have a well streetable engine on the street
as you dont use NOS on the street but bigger power at the track.. thats my 2 cents. cheers
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hellbugged
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| posted on June 17th, 2009 at 08:17 PM |
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intercooled supercharger and EFI
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greedy53
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| posted on June 17th, 2009 at 08:33 PM |
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supercharged it gives torque from start and dosn't ban on and load up the rods and such.i have build a supercharged 1641 and a 1600 the torque is
fantastic .these ran with a 8 lb bost without causing any problems you could potter around with no worries,i used water cooling using the blowers own
pressure so you only had water when you needed it and i also ran a trucks gearbox oil cooler with a 12 inch fan,this was more for oil capasity (the
more oil the cooler the motor)
so whitch to go as i have used both and supercharging a simple and cost efective fit
good luck
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bajachris88
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 09:06 AM |
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why not go all 3 three :P 
space out the barrels/heads and get urself a comp ratio of 6.5:1 and go nuts lol
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Turbo54
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 09:40 AM |
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I have had a vortech blower on a commodore motor and after a friend built a turbo one there was no comparison. I would turbo everytime. My vortech was
running twice the boost for the same result. This is double stress on components. Sure mine would get off the line harder but once his spooled there
was no catching him.
The only way to do this is setup 3 exact motors and see which is best eg. reliable, useable power and outright hp.
Any volenteers?
T54
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there's a new sensation hitting town,
It's moving straight, low to the ground,
it'll pick you up when your feeling down.
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polak
A.k.a.: Adam Pawlowski
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 09:51 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by type3vw
mmmm NOS, go nitrous you can make your fuel jet a bit bigger in the fogger to run on a safer side. you can have a well streetable engine on the street
as you dont use NOS on the street but bigger power at the track.. thats my 2 cents. cheers
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yeah iv always been a fan of nitrous, i had a wet nos system on my daily driver a few yrs back, still have it so there's most of the cost gone. since
it was a new commodore ute, they generally run on the lean side of things, so i ran 1 size up jet on the fuel side and it never missed a beat for
40,000kms and god knows how many bottles of giggle gas.... but with vw motors alot of ppl have been advising me against it, dont know y, i figure if u
have all the right internals it shouldnt be a problem... and with turbo and supercharger, there is the bonus of legality and not to mention the power
is always there............ i dont know.
VW - helping put oil back into the ground for over 60 years
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polak
A.k.a.: Adam Pawlowski
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 09:54 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by greedy53
supercharged it gives torque from start and dosn't ban on and load up the rods and such.i have build a supercharged 1641 and a 1600 the torque is
fantastic .these ran with a 8 lb bost without causing any problems you could potter around with no worries,i used water cooling using the blowers own
pressure so you only had water when you needed it and i also ran a trucks gearbox oil cooler with a 12 inch fan,this was more for oil capasity (the
more oil the cooler the motor)
so whitch to go as i have used both and supercharging a simple and cost efective fit
good luck
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cooling not an issue, i struggle to get it past 80C in fairly hot weather lol, i might have used a slightly large oil cooler  with all the braided lines, oil filter, deep sump and cooler i have
almost 5ltrs on the dot oil capacity!
VW - helping put oil back into the ground for over 60 years
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pete wood
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 11:16 AM |
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if you welded water jackets round your heads you might be better off with the heat issue. i've seen it done on a few cars now.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 01:02 PM |
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My friend had a Sprinter with a 4AGZE. Had a 12lb boost pulley on it (I think). It went pretty hard, really grunted away at almost any rpm.
He then took the supercharger off and put a turbo on. Sure it had more HP and was ultimately faster, but only when the revs were high. It had lost the
low end grunt and strong feeling that the supercharger gave.
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 03:20 PM |
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Look at what VW do. In the 1980s, they chose to fit a supercharger - the VW 'G-lader' - to the Polo, Golf/Jetta and Passat, rather than a
turbocharger. They also used a G-lader on the 'Polo Sprint', the one-off test vehicle fitted with a rear-mounted Wasserboxer flat four. The
G-charger used orbiting spirals rather than rotating components.
The Mk4 and Mk5 GTIs got a turbo, but it's a high-revving performance engine.
For normal Golfs, VW now fits BOTH a supercharger (for low-down boost) AND a turbocharger (for high-up boost). This is the VW 'twin-charger' - the
best of both worlds. It gives 2.0-litre performance from a 1.4-litre engine. A bit hard to adapt to a Beetle engine, though.
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=40001
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amazeer
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 06:17 PM |
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I'm struggling to see any advantage to nitrous. You have to keep refilling the bottle, + your mixtures are screwed up, + its illegal.
You must have too much money to waste if you're rebuilding and hotting up a temporary engine. If you're piulling an engine apart to replace a cam
you should at least put 94's on. Grab a counterweighted crank and be done with it.
I wouldn't advise even contemplating forced induction without an intercooler. You're throwing horsepower out the window and adding unnecessary heat
in the process.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 07:44 PM |
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Yeah, I can't see the point of nitrous. Where's the fun of it if you can't give it a squirt at every set of lights without having to refill
something.
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coletrickle
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 07:59 PM |
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if it's not going to be registered do what ever,if your going to drive it on the street nitrous would be my choice you can have less of every thing
cam compression head work fuel octane etc i would sugest your 1776 with a set of arp bolts and and exhaust and a non stock carb set up.Then have at
it with the gas!Say it makes 60 to 90 hp at the wheels a well set up system is safe and you could end up with up to 180 hp at the flick of a
switch,and you have got a car that is like jeckyl and hyde!As for it being illegal like i always say who are you a cop
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volumex
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 08:09 PM |
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I've driven a N/A, turbo and supercharged Fiat/Lancia twin cam and I would take the positive displacement supercharger every time. The supercharger
is so much more flexible - the torque is always there.
Centrifugal superchargers are the worst of both worlds - lag at low speeds and the high power draw to spin them.
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volumex
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 08:13 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by coletrickle
As for it being illegal like i always say who are you a cop
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Problem isn't the cops, it is the insurance companies. If you smash into someone/something and you have nitrous - then insurance
is not going to pay out. Having to live in squalor for the rest of your life to pay back what could be millions of $$$$ would not be pleasant.
Don't think it will never happen to you, as it does happen.
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T-34
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 08:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by volumex
| Quote: | Originally
posted by coletrickle
As for it being illegal like i always say who are you a cop
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Problem isn't the cops, it is the insurance companies. If you smash into someone/something and you have nitrous - then insurance
is not going to pay out. Having to live in squalor for the rest of your life to pay back what could be millions of $$$$ would not be pleasant.
Don't think it will never happen to you, as it does happen.
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If you have nothing - they cannot take it from you
I always fancied trying to get a twin turbo setup working - less lag. Superchargers tend to give better low down torque - turbo's the opposite -
using two smaller units should make them spin up faster and bring the useable torque down the rev range.
I've got a massive turbo (0.8 a/r) for my Ghia with a 50 shot of Nos to get the thing spooled up (Nos cuts off when it hits boost). Not got it
running yet so have yet to test it out. Not 100% it is streetable without the gas, but I'm hoping that there's not massive amounts of lag (fairly
large capacity engine). The gas also helps to cool the charge too.
Someone I know back in the UK was developing a cheap DIY turbo kit - basically it used a garret T03 with a re-jetted Renault 21 carby - worked really
well on a stock 1600 twin port (stock cam works really well for forced induction). I think they managed to get their test bug into the 13's in this
configuration. Not sure what happened to them - last time I spoke to him he was trying to get the exhausts mass produced. Used to hang out on Shop
Talk Forums.
HTH
Mick.
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coletrickle
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 09:10 PM |
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dude i live in squalor nowThe point i was trying to make was that the
speed limit is 110 max how much low end torque etc do you need the more power you have the more tempted you are to use it so a nice stockish engine
that you can turn into a hot rod at off street events disconnect the bottle and drive on the street has got to be pretty hard to beat.For example i
drove my brothers 73 dodge dart 440 10.1 650' solid cam pump gas etc to willowbank yesterday on street tyres thru the mufflers it ran 11.49 @119mph
its got 500hp atw it's a horrible car to drive at the speed limmit its completly legal but the cops still pull it over to give you a grilling.I think
i'm gonna have to ressurect my favorite engine of all time and gas it.
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volumex
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 09:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by T-34
| Quote: | Originally
posted by volumex
| Quote: | Originally
posted by coletrickle
As for it being illegal like i always say who are you a cop
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Problem isn't the cops, it is the insurance companies. If you smash into someone/something and you have nitrous - then insurance
is not going to pay out. Having to live in squalor for the rest of your life to pay back what could be millions of $$$$ would not be pleasant.
Don't think it will never happen to you, as it does happen.
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If you have nothing - they cannot take it from you
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They take if from your pay, every pay, until it is all paid back. Nothing funny about it.
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coletrickle
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| posted on June 18th, 2009 at 09:19 PM |
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last to weeks total hrs worked 21 hrs might top 15 hrs this week not a lot to garnish there and if i had to i recon i could live of grid doing cashies. Its not like i havent dissapeared before
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Stanley
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| posted on June 19th, 2009 at 06:45 AM |
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for ease and the abundance of information available i'd go turbo.
My stock 1641 with little TO2, SU and 6.5:1 compression ran 14's in my fat '70 beetle and was on it's way into the 12's in the current car before
it torched a piston.
It was street driven didn't get too hot and the only issue was sooty plugs with the low compression.
with that said i'm now looking at supercharging but this will be for Warwick next year. Current engine with same turbo setup but some new goodies
will be fitted this weekend.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on June 19th, 2009 at 07:11 AM |
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If you ever saw Dave Butlers supercharged VW drag car you'll know how awesome a supercharged flat 4 can sound.
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on June 19th, 2009 at 08:30 AM |
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This probably doesn't apply to modifying VW engines, but it's interesting anyway.
Unlike car engines, aircraft piston engine output is not determined by the engine capacity (ie bore/stroke). It is determined only by the mass of
fuel/air mixture that can be consumed efficiently, which is controlled by the supercharger. So aircraft piston engine designers improve engines in
this order:
1. Improve the supercharger
2. Improve the fuel (to delay the onset of detonation)
3. Develop mechanical features in the engine to take advantage of 1 and 2.
Rolls Royce did extensive development work on the 27-litre Merlin V12 during the war, with output being raised from 700 hp in 1939 to nearly 2,300 hp
by 1945. This was achieved with two-stage, two-speed superchargers. These gave the Merlin the same power output as the much larger capacity (36-litre)
V12 Griffon engine, with similar reliability, and much better performance than the 28-litre Allison V12 (which only had a single stage supercharger,
or a turbo supercharger, depending on the aircraft).
This is a lecture about the Merlin, and its supercharger development, given by Rolls Royce engineer A.C. Lovesey in 1945:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/merlin-lovesey.pdf
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Joel
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| posted on June 19th, 2009 at 08:33 AM |
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blowers have that certain cool factor on a vw
but like andrew said turbos are just so much cheaper and easier to get hold of
was always good value at shows the people that thought my bug had A/C , people seem to think that supercharging a vw is impossible for some reason
Agree with Wes, im a boostjunky of any descrription so a turbo spooling sounds nuts but the whine of blower is hard to beat
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polak
A.k.a.: Adam Pawlowski
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| posted on June 19th, 2009 at 08:53 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by amazeer
I'm struggling to see any advantage to nitrous. You have to keep refilling the bottle, + your mixtures are screwed up, + its illegal.
You must have too much money to waste if you're rebuilding and hotting up a temporary engine. If you're piulling an engine apart to replace a cam
you should at least put 94's on. Grab a counterweighted crank and be done with it.
I wouldn't advise even contemplating forced induction without an intercooler. You're throwing horsepower out the window and adding unnecessary heat
in the process.
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having used it before im now quite fond of it, its litterally power on tap and the cheapest and most effective power upgrade, yes its illegal but if u
keep to yourself and dont be an idiot with it there is no problem (unless u have an accident and insurance finds out  ) All 3 systems have their advantages and disadvantages... just have to
figure out what suits your car, its purpose and style ur of driving. ahhh! now im even more undecided.... lol maybe i should jus do all three
VW - helping put oil back into the ground for over 60 years
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