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 Smiley
A.k.a.: Daniel Stephens
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| posted on January 24th, 2010 at 10:25 PM |
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Which is Lighter?
Which is lighter?
Ball joint or King and Link? - King and Link
Swing axle or IRS? - Swing axle
Macpherson strut or beam front?
Superbug or Standard? - Standard
Drum brakes or disk brakes?
Does anyone know the lightest standard Beetle year model?
Smiley
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Smiley
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| posted on January 26th, 2010 at 09:48 PM |
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BUMP
Anyone?
Smiley
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Sides
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| posted on January 26th, 2010 at 10:06 PM |
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Hmm... only two things I know for definite on your list are:
- Swingaxle is lighter than IRS
- Super's and L's are the heaviest models
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Smiley
A.k.a.: Daniel Stephens
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| posted on January 26th, 2010 at 10:15 PM |
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Cheers man. Will edit first Post with the replies.
Smiley
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Sides
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| posted on January 26th, 2010 at 10:25 PM |
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Oh hey - I don't know that strut is heavier than beam... just that strut cars are heavier (remember they have IRS plus a lot of other heavier stuff
in 'em)
Whatcha tryin to figure out anyways ???
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STIDUB
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| posted on January 26th, 2010 at 10:25 PM |
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id put money on anything from the 49-59 vintage, base models, no chrome, spartan interior... although, whats heavier the extra metal & less glass
of a split/oval or the later models with less metal & big glass...
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Sides
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| posted on January 26th, 2010 at 10:27 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by STIDUB
although, whats heavier the extra metal & less glass of a split/oval or the later models with less metal & big glass...
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Glass is DEFINITELY heavier than metal.... try lifting a bonnet compared to a windscreen
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My toys
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01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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STIDUB
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| posted on January 26th, 2010 at 10:29 PM |
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original factory standard rusty metal or new repaired metal? 
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STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less |
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Sides
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| posted on January 26th, 2010 at 10:35 PM |
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Dunno dude - what's your dub made of ???
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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colonel mustard
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| posted on January 26th, 2010 at 10:36 PM |
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interesting...
why/what are you trying to work out mate?? I fail to see how its about the wieght..... If you want something for drag racing,a swinger will work for
you, if your going for circuit stuff, IRS will benifit you, if you like struts/more modern designs... well you go for struts...?
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dangerous
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| posted on January 27th, 2010 at 05:24 AM |
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...and link pin beam is MUCH lighter than baljoint.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Smiley
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| posted on January 27th, 2010 at 07:17 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Sides
Oh hey - I don't know that strut is heavier than beam... just that strut cars are heavier (remember they have IRS plus a lot of other heavier stuff
in 'em)
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Ok. Sorry. First post changed
Smiley
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Smiley
A.k.a.: Daniel Stephens
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| posted on January 27th, 2010 at 07:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by colonel mustard
interesting...
why/what are you trying to work out mate?? I fail to see how its about the wieght..... If you want something for drag racing,a swinger will work for
you, if your going for circuit stuff, IRS will benifit you, if you like struts/more modern designs... well you go for struts...?
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It's not for drag racing. And I don't want it to go fast around corners. Or fast at all.
I'm trying to work out all the lightest components because I want to build one of two things, a super economical Beetle or an eletric converted
one.
And with both of them weight is one of the most important factors.
Smiley
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Smiley
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| posted on January 27th, 2010 at 07:26 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
...and link pin beam is MUCH lighter than baljoint.
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Really? That's quite surprising as I thought they would be very similar.
Smiley
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alien8
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| posted on January 27th, 2010 at 08:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by smileyman3000
| Quote: | Originally
posted by colonel mustard
interesting...
why/what are you trying to work out mate?? I fail to see how its about the wieght..... If you want something for drag racing,a swinger will work for
you, if your going for circuit stuff, IRS will benifit you, if you like struts/more modern designs... well you go for struts...?
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It's not for drag racing. And I don't want it to go fast around corners. Or fast at all.
I'm trying to work out all the lightest components because I want to build one of two things, a super economical Beetle or an eletric converted
one.
And with both of them weight is one of the most important factors.
Smiley
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Personally I would be going down the "super economical" path instead of an electric engine. I love the idea of an electric engine though.It just
does not seem like a viable option anytime in the near future, if ever.
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Andy
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| posted on January 27th, 2010 at 09:36 PM |
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And you have not asked about aerodynamics yet?
Are you using it for slow stop/start work or more driving at reasonable speeds?
For what you are doing weight is only an issue for accelerating and hills, aerodynamics will be a bigger issue once at most road speeds.
The way you drive will drastically alter your economy also.
You might want to also factor in the safety improvements on a super/L bug with IRS, struts and disc brakes.
There are electric motor kits available. I have no first hand experience, but posted details from users are very favorable. Cost seemed comparable to
a professional full re-build of a motor. Mostly in the USA but have seen a type 3 and beetle for sale in Oz with them.
These were very old and very heavy kits, especially the battery packs, probably much better ones out now.
Good luck with your project, let us know how it goes
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Smiley
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| posted on January 27th, 2010 at 09:56 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Andy
And you have not asked about aerodynamics yet?
Are you using it for slow stop/start work or more driving at reasonable speeds?
For what you are doing weight is only an issue for accelerating and hills, aerodynamics will be a bigger issue once at most road speeds.
The way you drive will drastically alter your economy also.
You might want to also factor in the safety improvements on a super/L bug with IRS, struts and disc brakes.
There are electric motor kits available. I have no first hand experience, but posted details from users are very favorable. Cost seemed comparable to
a professional full re-build of a motor. Mostly in the USA but have seen a type 3 and beetle for sale in Oz with them.
These were very old and very heavy kits, especially the battery packs, probably much better ones out now.
Good luck with your project, let us know how it goes
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I had though about all of these things.
I'm not sure whether to go with a standard beetle for the low weight or an L bug for the better aerodynamics.
Safety isn't a concern for me. My daily drivers are Beetles or Bajas with drums all round. They stop and handle fine if you keep them serviced.
It's just research at this stage but I'm leaning towards the electric one. It's definately doable. The electric car from CBB and countless cars
from America and other parts of the world have proven that. It's more the costs at this point, which it usually is.
Smiley
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Andy
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| posted on January 27th, 2010 at 11:11 PM |
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Sounds very cool.
Hope you get to follow this one through. We can;t have everyone fitting Subaru motors....
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Smiley
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| posted on January 27th, 2010 at 11:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Andy
Sounds very cool.
Hope you get to follow this one through. We can;t have everyone fitting Subaru motors....
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It's going to be slow going while I save the money. But hopefully.
Smiley
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Smiley
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| posted on January 28th, 2010 at 11:56 AM |
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Does anyone know if drums or discs are lighter? Or does it depend on the kit and the stud pattern?
Smiley
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colonel mustard
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| posted on January 28th, 2010 at 12:01 PM |
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i know that discs are far more effective. but i would think drums are lighter. having said that, type 3 drums are much bigger than type 1 drums..
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Snap Crackle Bang
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| posted on January 28th, 2010 at 12:44 PM |
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Drum brakes are typically used for "Mileage marathon" cars because they drag a little bit less.
The spring can pull the lining away from the drum (if they are adjusted perfectly), unlike a disk pad which tends to always lightly rub.
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shaihulud
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| posted on January 28th, 2010 at 06:34 PM |
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I think that the idea of a super efficient car is a good one. So is an electric car.
Firstly aerodynamics doesn't matter at speeds of less that 90km/h, so I don't think that I'd concern myself much with that.
Secondly a plug in electric car in Australia runs on coal or diesel unless you live in the Snowy Mountains and then it runs on falling water under
pressure.
Thirdly the replacement electric motor/s and batteries will probably make the car heavier that a standard petrol car.
It's a good idea, but I don't think that the differences in the weights of standard cars will matter much in the long run.
Go for it. I'd like to see the end result.
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Smiley
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| posted on January 28th, 2010 at 08:02 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by colonel mustard
i know that discs are far more effective. but i would think drums are lighter. having said that, type 3 drums are much bigger than type 1 drums..
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Discs for wide five would probably be heavier than drums cause they have the extra flange where the wheel bolts onto.
Smiley
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Smiley
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| posted on January 28th, 2010 at 08:09 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by shaihulud
It's a good idea, but I don't think that the differences in the weights of standard cars will matter much in the long run.
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Every gram helps.
Smiley
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Andy
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| posted on January 29th, 2010 at 12:44 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by shaihulud
Firstly aerodynamics doesn't matter at speeds of less that 90km/h, so I don't think that I'd concern myself much with that.
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Are you sure on that point? I don't think I would agree.
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Smiley
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| posted on January 29th, 2010 at 06:29 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Andy | Quote: | Originally
posted by shaihulud Firstly aerodynamics doesn't matter at speeds of less that 90km/h, so I don't think that I'd concern myself much with
that. .
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Are you sure on that point? I don't think I would agree.
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I'm sure they matter. Just no where near as much as they do compared to higher speeds.
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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waveman1500
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| posted on January 29th, 2010 at 11:37 AM |
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How much are you hoping to spend on this Smileyman? I don't want to burst your bubble or anything, but in my opinion home-built electric cars are
much too expensive to be viable at the moment. As I'm sure you're aware if you've done the research, a good conversion with decent performance and
some sort of usable range is not going to leave you much change from $10,000, and it could cost far more depending on how carried away you get. If
economy is your goal, then you could buy a stock beetle and then put petrol in it for about four or five years with that much money! I am also
interested in electric vehicles and would love to build one just for fun and to have a different driving experience, but there's no way I could
justify the costs.
Also, if you're looking for ultimate light weight for this vehicle, have you considered using a Manx-style buggy? They surely must be a good amount
lighter than a Beetle. What about a Mk1 Golf or Polo?
Oh, and on the subject of low-speed aerodynamics, it really does make a difference. Ask any cyclist who has ever ridden in a peleton, once you cut
down the aerodynamic drag your overall resistance drops substantially. Another example is a man who improved the fuel economy of a 125cc Honda
motorbike from about 110mpg to 214mpg purely through streamlining. This 125cc bike is essentially a scooter, so it's not like he's breaking the land
speed record. Admittedly, motorbikes have much lower rolling resistance, as he shows in a chart below, but reducing aero drag is still worthwhile. As
you can see in the chart, at roughly 90km/h the aero drag of a car is significantly greater than rolling resistance.
His website is here: http://www.velomobiel.nl/allert/Recumbent%20motorbike.htm
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Smiley
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| posted on January 29th, 2010 at 04:43 PM |
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Cost is not a problem, it just takes time. By the time I save up enough money and finish building it, electric cars probably will be viable.
I know that everything you are saying it completely true.
I do have a J&S buggy at home but it is going to be an offroader so elecric is out. plus with a buggy the aerodynamics are pretty bad and you
don't have anywhere to put many batteries.
Smiley
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on January 30th, 2010 at 06:01 PM |
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You were asking about standard VW Beetle weights? These come from period magazine road tests from Australian, US and UK magazines. The different
countries listed slightly different weights - usually within 20kg of each other - so use these figures as a guide rather than an absolute.
1. 1956 1200 Beetle - 724 kg (14.25 cwt)
2. 1963 1200 Beetle - 741 kg (1631 lb)
3. 1966 1300 Beetle - 795 kg (1750 lb)
4. 1968 1500 Beetle - 825 kg (1815 lb)
5. 1971 1600 Superbug S - 838 kg (16.5 cwt)
6. 1972 1300 Beetle - 820 kg (1808 lb)
6. 1973 1600 Superbug L - 890 kg (1958 lb)
Fuel economy would depend more on the engine size and gearing, and how it is driven, rather than how much it weighs.
Aerodynamic drag increases with the square of the speed, and is also dependent on air density, and the coefficient of drag that is related to the
cross-sectional area.
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