| [ Total Views: 1372 | Total Replies: 28 | Thread Id: 61771 ] |
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 Dasdubber
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 posted on April 12th, 2007 at 09:34 PM |
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Turbo questions
Hi guys
A few questions, hopefully someone might be able to help:
I now have a 2nd hand turbo and I am trying to figure out how to position it behind the rear apron however it appears I can't rotate the intake
housing due to the internal wastegate position.
Also the internal gate is in this exhaust housing rather than the turbine housing like others I've seen....this will mean I'll have to somehow
modify the current exhaust - right?
1) Are these exhaust housings typically cast iron or cast steel?
2) Do you think it could be modified (either cut and turned, or cut just after the O2 bung so a straight joint could be welded on)?
3) Is this O2 bung of any use (considering I'll be going EFI...just not finalised on which ECU yet)?
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Dasdubber
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 09:41 PM |
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Here is the turbo:
If I can't rotate the cold side in comparison the hot, this is the only feasible way to position it as I see it currently...
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dragvw2180
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 10:00 PM |
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You may want to replace the cast iron exhaust manifold with a plate of steel,blocks off the internal wastegate hole and provides a flange to weld a
tail pipe to. Mike
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Dasdubber
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 10:10 PM |
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If I went down this route Mike, I would just run an external wastegate right?
The other option (if I retained the cast exhaust) which was suggested by humpty would be to unbolt the wastegate from the intake housing boss itself,
and fabricate a L-bracket that could be bolted to the housing bolts (rather than the boss).
Considering I am trying to build this thing on the tightest budget (within reason), sticking with an internal wastegate will save a few
pennies.....but I guess time will tell.
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Boostn
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 01:18 AM |
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Yep I have done that heaps of times it works well. just put the housings were they work best and worry about making a bracket later.
How much boost are you planning? It gets hard to control an internal gate nicely, especially when the housing is small. An external is a nicer option
but does cost.
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Dasdubber
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 07:00 AM |
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I think boost will be limited to around 10lbs max - I don't think the stock rods (esp if I keep the stock rod bolts) will handle any more!
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dangerous
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 07:22 AM |
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Keep that sucker out of detonation and those rods will handle a lot of HP Alan.
I made 275(+BLOWER DRIVE LOSS) from my 1775cc engine with stock type one rods.
But if I ran it a little lean and torched a plug... bendy time.
This was with 28psi manifold pressure.
Remember that boost is not a good way to rate engine parts strength.
Torque is best. It is directly related to BMEP. (basically cylinder pressure)
EG a stock 2lt type 4 with 20psi MANIFOLD PRESSURE,
may make less CYLINDER PRESSURE than a big cam and ported 2lt with 10 psi.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Turbo54
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 11:27 AM |
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Mate I would turn it around and have the actuator and internal wastegate at the bottom,
You can then have your intake under the guard and get fresh air and run your ex under the rear apron.
You should be able to rotate bith sides just loosen off all the bolts and twist. It is a tight fit and was very tight on my turbo
T54
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Stanley
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 11:55 AM |
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Like boostn said. Put it where you want it to go and it fits best and make the brackets to suit. I had to rotate the housings and make my own brackets
for the wastegate on the TAT turbo. I was originally reluctant to do it but in hind sight it was the best option.
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Dasdubber
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 12:22 PM |
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Sounds good guys - looks like that might be the best option. Will keep you updated.
Alan
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 02:21 PM |
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With my brother's car we went straight to an external waste gate that way we could mount everything where ever we needed to. Added plus is exhaust
comes off the turbo and has about 350mm of pipe to the super trap at the back of the car. Wastegate has it's own dump just inside the rear beaver
panel.
Should sound interesting.....
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Grey 57
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 02:42 PM |
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Question on turbo locations! I recently watched a car show called "2 guys garage" on the foxtel How to Channel. They installed a turbo set up on a
Camaro that was located at the back end of the car where the muffler usually sits. The turbo charge was pushed back to the front (engine) via large
dia tube about 4mtrs long.
The benefits of this set up was a major reduction in heat on the turbo as the exhaust gases were a lot cooler at the muffler end. The distance from
engine to turbo wasnt a prob as the gas velocity was the same.
Oil was plumbed into the turbo by a long oil line and a scavenge pump use to return the oil back to the engine sump.
They stated that there was hardly any lag due to the lenght of the inlet tube due to the waste gate?? They dyonoed the motor and it was making good
power.
Any one else seen a turbo set uplike this?? Seems like a good option for a VW with no space and needing to keep heat down to a minimum??
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Turbo54
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 03:48 PM |
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It can all fit you just have to think about it, mine has quite a bit of room around it and I just bought a really nice magnaflow muffler thats inlet
and outlet are on the same end, 2 1/2" and makes my exhaust only a foot and half long, no time to get really hot and will tuck up under the guard
even with big drag slicks.
Alan, i have posted the latest pics and how it fits on my members rides. you have room, everything just has to have a place.
Heath
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 08:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
I now have a 2nd hand turbo and I am trying to figure out how to position it behind the rear apron however it appears I can't rotate the intake
housing due to the internal wastegate position. Also the internal gate is in this exhaust housing rather than the turbine housing like others I've
seen....this will mean I'll have to somehow modify the current exhaust - right?
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Yer, unfortunately with that particular turbo it will.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
1) Are these exhaust housings typically cast iron or cast steel?
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Cast iron
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
2) Do you think it could be modified (either cut and turned, or cut just after the O2 bung so a straight joint could be welded on)?
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Yer you can cut it and have it welded and it will work fine but the welders need to be experienced with cast iron and it will probably need to be
machined flat after.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
3) Is this O2 bung of any use (considering I'll be going EFI...just not finalised on which ECU yet)?
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Keep it if you can. It will come in handy later on.
Dont get knocked out with bothering with external gates tho M8.
Meh, largely wank in a low-tel setup.
What is considered "correct" and what you can make work successfully are vastly different.
External 'gates are all well and good if money is no object and you are going for the very "nth" degree of boost control in a full race screaming
animal big-arsed boost engine but internally gated setups work happily and reliably up to seriously obscene boost and HP levels.
Dont listen to the legions of nay-sayers regarding boost creep, boost spiking and so-on drivel. Ignore all that.
It will NEVER bother you below 20 PSI or so, even higher.
Just remove the wastegate actuator and put it to one side and dont think about it.
Position your turbo wherever you want it, rotate away, and pipe up your manifolds to suit.
Basically, after the whole thing is mounted, housings rotated and plumbed in blah, THEN you can bother to bracket the actuator back into whatever
position necessary. Just make an "L" bracket using the compressor housing bolts and shorten off the actuator rod to suit.
Or just grab an actuator off a small frame Garret turbo (T2/T25T28) which already bolts to the compressor housing and drill and tap some bolt holes to
suit. Easy as!
It does not have to be scientific!
Importantly, dont get dazzled in science and have fun with your project M8. Youll enjoy the journey and NEVER look back!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 08:41 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Grey 57
The benefits of this set up was a major reduction in heat on the turbo as the exhaust gases were a lot cooler at the muffler end.
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The turbo will work anywhere really but the very fact that there is a reduction in heat at the turbo means the result is far less efficient.
The lengths of pipe are largely irrelevent as pressure at one end of a pipe is pressure at the other end regardless of its length unless the pipe is
massively restrictive (too small).
However, you need to CONTAIN and transmit that heat as much as possible to the turbine and have that heat pass thru the turbo, not radiate it away.
This is why turbo manifolds and turbine housings are often lagged in a performance setup. They are trying to keep the heat IN rather than protect the
engine and other bits from radiated heat!!
A centrifugal turbine is an "energy recovering device" and will recover what would otherwise be lost heat energy out the tailpipe and convert that
to virtually free rotational energy to turn the compressor.
The more heat you can get in there, the more energy the turbine will recover.
They dont rely solely on the velocity and/or pressure of the gas going thru it to work and become even a bigger potato in the tailpipe/pumping losses
blah blah blah.
A massive long pipe from the manifold to the turbo actually becomes a massively long heat emitter down the entire length of the chassis!
Seems like a lot of buggerising around, what with oil scavenge pumps and shit, just to prove what exactly???
That a turbo will boost thru long pipes but far less efficiently?
Meh! Interesting project but not worth a lot of time.
L8tr
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Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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Quoll
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 10:16 AM |
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I think the idea behind them is that they are a "bolt on" upgrade for larger V engines rather then having to fart about with turbo manifolds etc in
a small engine bay. From what I have heard they are ok but won't make much over 8psi. There is a lot of BS hype with these systems too they claim
that the long intake pipe gives an intercooling “effect” the only intercooling like property that I can think this would give is slower response
and pressure drop :P |
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Dasdubber
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 11:09 AM |
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Cheers for the input guys. I had a play around and rotated the housings but until I get the new gearbox built and bolted in, and the engine in place,
I won't finalise the position of the housings relative to eachother.
So hopefully in a month or two I'll be able to start the plumbing!
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 11:32 AM |
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Out of interest Das what is the turbo from?
Also, why a turbo and not a supercharger? Thinking from my barstool a supercharger would prob be better for street driving due to torque. Turbo for
the strip as it does not sap power and is all top end?
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 01:09 PM |
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I believe the turbo was from a Nissan 300zx (not sure if it was the twin turbo model or not).
A big factor in my decision was cost - much cheaper for me to go down the road of turbo rather than supercharger.
Also I just wanted the ultra-cool factor of "vvvvrrrrrrooooooooommmmmm......WHOOOOOSHHHHHH........ vvvvrrrrrooooooooommmm.....WHOOOOOSH!" etc.
PS Just kidding about that last part 
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 03:57 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
I believe the turbo was from a Nissan 300zx (not sure if it was the twin turbo model or not).
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The twin turbo (vg30dett) used two small hybrids which are basically a T2 turbine (Nissan Pulsar Turbo ET) with a T25 compressor (Nissan 180sx) Not
very wonderful as the T2 turbine housing is quite restrictive and the inlet is a small .49a/r making the things only really useful at stock or
slight;y higher than stock boost levels on what amounts to a 3 cylinder 1500.
The single turbo VG30det used a large T3 (VL Commonwhore)
That thing there does not appear like a T2/T25 hybrid but the pix does not show enough to scale it. be best to find out for sure M8. If its the
single turbo T3 type then best unload it and get something much smaller or you will visit lag city until quite high RPM. Yuk!
L8tr
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Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 05:59 PM |
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But if the engine is of a larger capacity and the pipes are short enough then lag will be minimual. don't forget the choice of cam grind will also
drastically effect how the engine will deliver it's power too.
[size=4] ACCEPT THAT SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE PIDGEON AND SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE STATUE[/size]
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 06:11 PM |
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Umm think about it a bit further M8
If its a T3, its a big one, designed for a high revving 3000cc V6
Sure, you can run a 750 Hp T66 on a motorcycle if you want but how much lag do you want??? I like to produce gobs of power with little lag and fast
spooling.
The idea of standing on the pedal and count...1...2...3..4.. pssssstt "oh shit out of revs and she aint spooled up yet is a total pain. Believe
me!
This presumes it is the T3 of the single turbo engine.
L8tr
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Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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Stanley
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 07:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
A big factor in my decision was cost - much cheaper for me to go down the road of turbo rather than supercharger.
Also I just wanted the ultra-cool factor of "vvvvrrrrrrooooooooommmmmm......WHOOOOOSHHHHHH........ vvvvrrrrrooooooooommmm.....WHOOOOOSH!" etc.
PS Just kidding about that last part
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No you're not. I used to think the same way. Nothing like the whine of a turbo especially on an aircooled volksy.
Welcome to forced induction.....:thumb
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Dasdubber
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 07:38 PM |
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Thanks tassupervee - I am pretty sure it is off the 3L 300zx....I think I'll run it as is for now (lack of funds).....depending on how it runs and
what sort of $ I have down the track, I may even look at a new garret ball bearing smaller T3.
I guess when budget is a restricting factor, you need to compromise.
Stanley.....I'm looking forward to the turbo whine - but I think I will go the "stealth" blow off valve - I'm just not a huge fan of the
"PSSSSCHHHH" (hard to write what it sounds like!) sounds from some of the ricers!
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Dasdubber
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 07:41 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
don't forget the choice of cam grind will also drastically effect how the engine will deliver it's power too.
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cam will be dual pattern with symmetrical lift, around 6 degrees of split duration favouring the exhaust...and approx 0.500 lift, 242 duration @ 0.50
- haven't got exact specs yet, but this is close to the mark (from Jake Raby in the US).
Alan
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Boostn
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 07:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Nothing like the
whine of a turbo especially on an aircooled volksy.
Welcome to forced induction.....:thumb
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SO TRUE !
well said
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 08:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
Thanks tassupervee - I am pretty sure it is off the 3L 300zx....I think I'll run it as is for now (lack of funds).....depending on how it runs and
what sort of $ I have down the track, I may even look at a new garret ball bearing smaller T3.
I guess when budget is a restricting factor, you need to compromise.
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Then lets hope the engine was a twin turbo in which case it will work really well.
However, Im almost certain that the flange is a T2/25/28 type.
The T3 flange is a bit different but its hard to tell from pix.
Good luck M8
L8tr
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Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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Dasdubber
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| posted on April 23rd, 2007 at 08:56 PM |
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I'll try and get another pic - hopefully the mystery can then be solved 
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 25th, 2007 at 06:46 PM |
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I climbed around under the Fj20et today (T3) and im almost certain that turbo you have is a T3. T3' are not the most modern bit of gear and off a 200
Kw 3 litre, M8, youll hate it, particularly if you set it up as a pull thru and you will learn to hate the lag.
I would confirm exactly what it is, unload it and find yourself a T25 or even a T2.
If its off a Vg30det then it will have a ceramic exhaust wheel. If its off a VG30de, it will have a steel exhaust wheel.
I have never paid more than 100 dollars each for the 5 x To2s & T2's I have and the T25 I recently bought was only 140 dollars.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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