| [ Total Views: 902 | Total Replies: 24 | Thread Id: 73862 ] |
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 ancientbugger
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| posted on January 6th, 2009 at 04:18 PM |
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Starter problems!
This only came to a head this past weekend but the buggy gets hard (read "practically impossible") to start when hot. It is definitely not the
wiring. I've a type 4 engine going to an early box, the starter motor is from the type 4 and the bearing is correct as that is the first thing I
checked but all I get is a noise like a dead battery struggling to turn the engine over. The battery is fully charged and the starter is reasonably
new and in good condition. I've covered all the bases that I can think of so if anyone else can throw some light on my predicament it would be most
welcome.
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 vw54
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| posted on January 6th, 2009 at 04:23 PM |
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Double check yr EARTHS to the gearbox and motor and battery
also you could fit a strap to the starter bolt as well wont hurt
the other option is a relay to the soliniod to have direct power in stead of going all the way fwd then back again a short cut system
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on January 6th, 2009 at 04:26 PM |
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Do You have a so called Hot start kit....??
a relay next to the battery or starter motor??
is the bush greased with lithium based moly grease?
Do You have a new gearbox to chassis earth strap?
LEE
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ancientbugger
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| posted on January 6th, 2009 at 06:54 PM |
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All except the relay including the earth to starter. I have wondered (don't laugh!) whether the starter motor shaft was too long and hitting the
enging case. Would the relay help? I've already put a starter button on the buggy very close to the starter itself -we're talking a short wheelbase
buggy here so that the wiring is very short, so basically power to turn on the starter is all within about 12 inches i.e. battery,button and starter
all in the same place pretty much. Ignition turns on at the key, there's a marine style battery cut out switch so it can't just be jumped into and
driven away. I've had a couple of starters since running the type 4 so I may just be really unlucky ...Just thought though -why is it worse when the engine is hot? Surely not wiring that's why I
had the strange thought about the shaft with metal expansion.
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on January 6th, 2009 at 08:45 PM |
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shaft expansion may be a problem..
or maybe the shaft goes too far in when its HOT...
as You suggested...
You could try a couple of thick flat washers between the bellhousing and the starter motor...
You may need an automatic [type 3] or semi auto [type 1] starter motor...
they have bearings at both ends... NO Shaft sticking out
just the gear....
or maybe You have a problem with the solenoid itself..
check that the pin or screw that the lever pivots on is still there... Mine came undone and the starter started making a noise... depends how much of
the pin is worn or loose...
sounds like the push button starter should fix the hot start problem..
actually, My starter motor is a bit sluggish Now with the heat.. have checked the battery etc... everything OK..
but after driving it... its even worse....??
maybe too hot sydrome.. lol..
LEE
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MickH
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| posted on January 6th, 2009 at 11:49 PM |
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To help narrow down the problem....when it won't start have you tried bridging the starter with a screwdriver across the poles?? If it cranks when
bridged it is an ignition problem..if not a starter problem. Adding a relay from the ignition switch to the starter may fix an ignition problem. What
CCA is your battery??? The higher CCA the better....
tssnq.com.au
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pod
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| posted on January 7th, 2009 at 12:07 AM |
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had the same prob with my 82 bus, couldnt figure it out either,but along the same lines we had a commodore with the same thing ,no hot start,changed
the battery to one with bigger CCA (heavy duty) problem solved
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on January 7th, 2009 at 12:17 AM |
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I had heaps of starting problems a few years ago...
tried everything... changed starter motors...
then I bought a New P460D Exide battery...
all the problems went away..... lol
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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Adsman
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| posted on January 7th, 2009 at 12:27 PM |
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I had same problem. Put in a 550CCA battery and all works fine again. It is strange because when the car is hot ie. been running the battery should be
fully charged and have more power available. Only thing I could think of was that the battery was starting to wear out and go open circuit.
What my garage isn't messy........Well chaos is a form of order isn't it?
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ancientbugger
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| posted on January 7th, 2009 at 04:31 PM |
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Well the battery is pretty new. 330cca. I'll try bridging the starter and see what happens. Watch this space! BTW Lee with the type 3 and/or auto
starter would that mesh with the type 4 flywheel ?
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pod
A.k.a.: paul mrvw061
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| posted on January 7th, 2009 at 04:49 PM |
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Barry have you tried using a jumper pack on your battery when it dont want to start,thats what i had to do with my bus ,hence thinking that maybe i
needed a bigger battery,you will need a auto kombi starter,if you are using a kombi starter now
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MickH
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| posted on January 7th, 2009 at 05:42 PM |
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330CCA isn't big enough!!! When the engine is hot it's harder to turn over and a hot starter doesn't work as well as a cold one....try a bigger
battery.
tssnq.com.au
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on January 7th, 2009 at 05:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ancientbugger
Well the battery is pretty new. 330cca. I'll try bridging the starter and see what happens. Watch this space! BTW Lee with the type 3 and/or auto
starter would that mesh with the type 4 flywheel ?
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It will mesh with an 1800 flywheel but not the 2L from what I remember.The starters are all the same except the 2L ones (from memory) are different??
Lee will most likely know more about that..
tssnq.com.au
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ancientbugger
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| posted on January 9th, 2009 at 10:15 AM |
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Thanks for that Mick, I'll try a bigger battery. Still haven't try bridging the posts-just had a migraine for almost two days. Pod I tried a jumper
pack and it made no difference.BTW if any VW newcomers are reading this then a good idea is to start a problem solving diary, if I had years ago
putting in the problem and when it was sorted writing in the solution I wouldn't be posting things like this as over the years I've probably had the
same thing happen a few times but in the time between I,ve forgotten the solution and many times the workshop manuals don't cover it
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Brad
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| posted on January 9th, 2009 at 10:33 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ancientbugger
This only came to a head this past weekend but the buggy gets hard (read "practically impossible") to start when hot. It is definitely not the
wiring. I've a type 4 engine going to an early box, the starter motor is from the type 4 and the bearing is correct as that is the first thing I
checked but all I get is a noise like a dead battery struggling to turn the engine over. The battery is fully charged and the starter is reasonably
new and in good condition. I've covered all the bases that I can think of so if anyone else can throw some light on my predicament it would be most
welcome.
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Ok, few questions for you:
1 - when you say "bearing is correct" do you mean the starter spigot bush which you changed when you put the type 4 onto the type 1 box ?
2 - Does the engine run fine ? timing is right etc ?
3 - What type 4 engine do you have ? what starter motor ?
If all the fine then I would be looking at either a battery cell or a crappy starter motor.
After years on banging stupid crap quaility VW starter motors I have changed all my VW over to Cranky Kits and the difference is amazing. I even
swapped the Geko over which had one of those high torque starters on it.
I only wish I had of done it before I bought yet anoth 2L kombi starter that was never going to be up to the job of starting a warm EJ.
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jamsha71
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| posted on January 9th, 2009 at 11:39 PM |
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I believe I may have had a similar problem with my Kombi. Strated well in the morning, but on road trips it wouldn't turn over after refuelling,
pisstops , etc. Whenever I turned the key all I'd get was that ticka, ticka, ticka sound.
From memory a 6mm cable between the battery and the starter solenoid did the trick, with the circuit broken by a relay triggered by the existing
starter circuit. I never had the problem again
76 Kombi (current)
75 Kombi
71 Beetle
69 Beetle
69 Beetle
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ancientbugger
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| posted on January 10th, 2009 at 09:17 AM |
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Brad, yes the starter spigot bush. Yes the motor runs fine (when there's no crap in the carbs!) and it's an 1800 with the starter for the same. Now
what's a Cranky kit????
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OZ Towdster
A.k.a.: Andrew Westwood
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| posted on January 10th, 2009 at 09:28 AM |
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Here ya go Barry http://www.crankykits.com.au/ .
They were desigened and created by Paul who has the nice looking EJ22 powered green Manx with the Radiator out the back
Don't let body work get in the way of real suspension travel
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MickH
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| posted on January 10th, 2009 at 02:28 PM |
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My 2L starter has never had a problem starting my EJ engine,even with my "little" 360CCA battery.
tssnq.com.au
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ancientbugger
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| posted on January 11th, 2009 at 12:06 AM |
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Me thinks in the morning I will pull the starter out and pull it apart as I tried the bridging lark and not a lot happened. Have a look at the brushes
etc before I start laying out any cash.
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ancientbugger
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| posted on January 14th, 2009 at 08:38 AM |
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Well, pulled the starter to bits and everything looked fine, put it back and it's useless. It'll start the engine but very slowly. I'm starting to
look seriously at the Cranky kits as I'm sick to death of starter motors. Hey Brad with the Cranky kit does the Suburu starter not use the spigot
bush at all?
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Kimbo
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| posted on January 14th, 2009 at 12:29 PM |
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For what it's worth, had a similar problem with my starter - worked fine 6 out of 10 times, but never when you really needed it - pushing the starter
button resulted in clicking but no turning. Had it serviced - turned out it was "sticky solenoid contacts".
Kimbo
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ancientbugger
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| posted on January 14th, 2009 at 01:35 PM |
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I just replaced the solenoid with one that I knew was perfect while I had the whole thing apart just in case
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ancientbugger
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| posted on January 18th, 2009 at 09:52 PM |
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Hey Andrew or Brad getting back to the Cranky Kit, does it use the spigot bush or not? To me it looks like it doesn't in which case that's the way I
think I'll go so if you would confirm my suspicions it would be great
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ancientbugger
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| posted on February 5th, 2009 at 09:46 PM |
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Well I sent off two weeks ago for my cranky kit and so far I'm the only one who's cranky as I'm still waiting!
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