| [ Total Views: 4685 | Total Replies: 23 | Thread Id: 79796 ] |
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 sdat
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| posted on October 22nd, 2009 at 05:13 PM |
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swing axel camber compensator
Does anybody now anything about camber compensators?
Are they legal?
Are they really as good as what I have heard?
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sdat
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| posted on October 22nd, 2009 at 05:30 PM |
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Or is a rear sway bar a better idea?
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trickysimon
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| posted on October 22nd, 2009 at 05:54 PM |
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I'd also like to know this for future upgrades 
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1500S
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| posted on October 23rd, 2009 at 11:24 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by sdat
Does anybody now anything about camber compensators?
Are they legal?
Are they really as good as what I have heard?
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We used them back in the 60s on Type 3s and they did give a more positive feel on corners. Legal?? Don't know now. Too many things have changed
and may be in the fine print somewhere. The down side of things is you do loose some ground clearance at the diff where the mounting cradle fits.
Not much use to the ones who lower the car to a stupid height! The norm back then was to lower the rear between 3 and 5 degrees on the spring plate
and have that bit of positive load on the compensator spring. It takes the standard spongy feel out of the rear. These were the type with the
retaining straps over the axle tubes rather than the ones of recent years with the nylon blocks rubbing on the underside.
DH
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colonel mustard
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| posted on October 23rd, 2009 at 11:35 AM |
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John Sherman sells them. Give him a call about legality's and how they work. be prepared to be on the phone for an hour though.
http://www.volksconversions.com.au/Brakes.html
Ph: 07 55 377 770
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hellbugged
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| posted on October 23rd, 2009 at 01:15 PM |
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get a rear sway bar, but should upgrade front as well
Search ebay for selbys
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vwsteve
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| posted on October 23rd, 2009 at 02:31 PM |
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.
they come on 356 porsches, i have 1 on my kg vert, personally my kgs without feel better round corners than my vert with it, i think they are a waste
of time and money, yes go the swaybars instead
1 1963 356b porsche coupe
2 1960 karmann ghia cab
1 1965 karmann ghia cab
1 1966 karmann cab
1 1961 split ute
1 1967 split p/van
1 1952 standard bug
1 1963 ragtop
1 1960 ragtop
2 1954 ovals
1 1956 oval baja project
1 1957 oval flying flea
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cnfabo
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| posted on October 23rd, 2009 at 10:52 PM |
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i have have one of shermans or sway away style one, the ends needed to be hacked off a bit to clear the shocks..
i have never tried a rear sway bar on my swinger, but damo likes em... most people say no to the a rear bar on a swinger for some reason..
if your cars real low or lower id say screw the compensator as they are flimsy crap,the bar needs to be thicker..when i lift my car up the axles still
drooped....
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vwo60
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| posted on October 26th, 2009 at 10:51 AM |
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Be aware, sway bars should not be used on swing axel rear ends, they will work to a point but when pushed they will cause the rear end to go into
positive camber on both wheels , and you will end up with snap overstear, sway bars on a swing axel car will attemp to keep the camber the same on
both wheels so if one axel goes positive so will the other, a camber compensator tries to keep the axels parralell so if one wheel goes positive the
other wheel will try to go negitive, this will promote body roll but is not noticable in practice ,i have tried a sway bar on my swing axel car and it
made the vehicle dangerous when it was driven quickly, a good book to aquire is the speedpro "How to modify volkswagen beetle suspension , this does
not list the use of a sway bar on a swing axel car only a camber compensator, also swayaway does not make a sway bar for a swing axel car showing that
they understand the idioscrasy of the swing axel rear end, both my cars run a genuine swayaway camber compensator and they are far from flimsy , by
design were never intended to hold up the unloaded suspension of the car only to assist with the reduction of axel tuck , these bars are also a
negitive spring that will improve the ride of the car in the rear as they apply a upward force on the axels that decrease the spring rate in the first
part of the wheel travel, if the camber compensator has a strap over the axel it will not work as well as the swayaway design, i originally had a
sherman one that made the car ride like a dray because the bar did not act as a negitive spring, it increased the spring rate because it required
the bar to be pulled up by the straps over the axels to work, when i removed this bar there was only an impovement in the ride and no difference in
the handling, adding a bar to the rear does not guarantee the car will handle, make certain that the toe on the car is checked and ajusted, an old
porsche trick is to set it with no toe or a slight toe in, with the factory setting it toes out, if you lift of in a corner the factory setting
promote oversteer and a good compromise for the camber is about 1 to 1.5 degree for street use
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hellbugged
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| posted on October 26th, 2009 at 12:09 PM |
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all good theory
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trickysimon
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| posted on October 26th, 2009 at 04:28 PM |
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They way I understand it is:
Sway bars on a swing axle make it handle much better under its cornering limit.
If you go over that limit though, your pretty much screwed.
Is this right?
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vwo60
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| posted on October 26th, 2009 at 06:19 PM |
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My experence over the last 30 years indicate to me that the camber compensator when fitted to a correctly set up car will not amplify the swing axles
natural tendency to tuck the axles ,as for the sway bar it will increase that tendency and lower the point that this happens, the compensator is a
much safer and improved the handling noticably on a correctly set up car, the devil is in the detail.
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hellbugged
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| posted on October 26th, 2009 at 08:34 PM |
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well WTF happens if you over corner a standard swing axle???.......i certainly wouldn't call it understeer!
vwo60 can you please tell me some more specifics on how your car was set up to make these claims....front bar size. attachment/mounting style tyre
size, rim offset, rake of car........did you try everything before giving up on the sway bars or just decide it was no good from the start?....try
increased torion bars to match new stiffness of the bars........using drop spindles, one or two adjusters in the front end?...........
how was it attached to the rear?..i will bet it wasn't to the spring plates!...what size was it, was it adjustable?.......how many sizes and
combinations (front/rear) did you experiment with?
was it a straight bar or dip under the frame horns or more a style as per the later Z bars being straight........was the mounting of it adjustable so
when the car was sitting at it's normal ride height the bar was in a "relaxed/neutral" position on both sides........how much travel did you have
in the rear suspension
please don't bore me with a 30 year experience speel......unless you are assuming the guys that developed my set up to a "bolt on and get it right
first go" as part of their multi million $ business working in conjunction with dedicated sway bar engineering firms arrived at their settings via
sheer luck alone
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cnfabo
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| posted on October 26th, 2009 at 08:48 PM |
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WOW,
damo, are using a irs sway bar on the rear of the swinger ?
i looked on selbys and didnt find a rear swinger bar on there....i have one of there front bars....
my c/compensator is not one of the strap ones.... when i jack the car up my wheels go into positive thats why i said its flimmsy.. if its doing this
stationary itll definatly do cornering hard...
has anyone tried limiting straps, like maybe steel cable with shackles but have a heavy duty spring in between to stop the instant bang when it limits
the travel into positive... just a thought i had that i might try...
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hellbugged
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| posted on October 26th, 2009 at 09:10 PM |
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no it's a designed and developed swing axle bar (whiteline/selbys)........22mm
fillout the search criterior with 1956-1967 type 1
http://www.selbys.com.au/search_cc.php
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cnfabo
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| posted on October 26th, 2009 at 10:06 PM |
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did all those bushes come with the kit?? what are the rear bushes called??
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 matberry
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| posted on October 26th, 2009 at 11:01 PM |
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Have to agree with Daimo here, the Whiteline bars are are great addition IMO. I've setup a few early cars and certainly have not had problems with
axle tuck like some people or early bars expierenced. But you do need to limit suspension droop, match bars front and rear, have good tyres and
shocks, and drive like a demon
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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vwo60
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 posted on October 26th, 2009 at 11:53 PM |
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Hell bug its good of you to degenerate the experence that i have gained over the time, to date this is my 8th beetle that i have modifided
extensivly, the very bar that you have on your car is the one that is hanging up in my shed 22 mm and all, my 60 beetle on the front has a 22mm front
bar, forged dropped spindles, swayaway front leaves, aluminium bronze front trailing arm bushes,forged link pins and king pins running in aluminium
bronze bushes , kyb gas ajust shocks, the front brakes i engineered and machined myself,they have a 300mm ventilated rotor,billet aluminium hubs and
the calipers are a set of magnesium 4 spotters,front wheels are a set 7" 3 piece composite wheels custom made for the car,tyres 205/45/17,castor is
set at 5 degrees, toe 3 mm,
the rear consists of swayaway camber stop 1.5 degrees of negitive camber, toe as discribed, shortened bump stops, kyb gas ajusts, urathane spring
plate bushes, limiting stops fitted to only allow 4 degrees of positive camber, wheels are 8" 3 piece composite again custom made for the car, these
are fitted with 235/45/17 tyres
rear brakes are also designed and fabricated by myself,all modifications are plated and the brakes passed first time,
the balance of the car is quite neutral with oversteer available on aplication of power, i accept the design floors that the swing axle has and these
faults cannot be eliminated, i don't care who makes the rear sway bar or how the sway is fitted but it cannot be denied when you overcook the car
in a corner and the out side wheel goes positive the other wheel will be forced by the sway bar to follow, any thing that does that in my opion is not
very well designed, the experence i had with our bar was exactly that, no warning just instant oversteer, i came home and removed it immediatly and
now it hangs on the shed wall, PS Gene berge said that the engle 110 was the best all round cam ever made
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cnfabo
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| posted on October 27th, 2009 at 07:50 AM |
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vwo60 what do u use for the limiting stops.....can it be a bit harsh when it hits the end of travel..
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matberry
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| posted on October 27th, 2009 at 09:31 AM |
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vwo60, sounds like a hell of a car and your just up the road from me, love to check it out someday.
Your input is well recieved here as this is a discussion forum and all views are welcome. Very interesting to see where this leads, I hope Greg (Happy
Daze) chimes in as he is one of the most experienced swinger peddlers on here, and can setup a car with his eyes closed.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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hellbugged
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| posted on October 27th, 2009 at 10:37 AM |
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yes agreed sounds like a great car with lots of work gone into it and obviously working to your liking......
apologies for not taking the time proof read my posts and make sure they translated to text in the mannor i intended
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Camo
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| posted on October 27th, 2009 at 01:31 PM |
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Firstly I will say that I can not provide any assistance into this discussion, but would like to clarify something having never seen a camber
compensator setup before.
vwo60 - I took your advice and have bought the book "How to Modify Volkswagen Beetle Chassis, Suspension & Brakes for High Performance" For
others see this link [size=5]CLICK HERE. [/size]
I have no experience in racing but would like to ask you about your comment you made in your last post, that being "when you overcook the car in a
corner and the out side wheel goes positive the other wheel will be forced by the sway bar to follow"
If I understand it, the outside wheels are the ones that would be taking to load (eg right hand corner, left hand wheels loaded). How would these
wheels under load get into positive camber. I ask this with all due respect and also wanting to understand as I am building a 61 Beetle at the
moment. I fully understand with a sway bar that if one rear wheel goes into positive or negative the opposite side wheel tries to replicate this,
hence both wheels attempting to stay at the same positioning in suspension travel.
In addition, you said that the camber compensator tries to keep the axels parralell so if one wheel goes positive the other wheel will try to go
negative. For this to happen, wouldn't the compensator have to be pivoted in the centre. Maybe they are and I have answered my own question. Again,
have never seen this setup before sorry.
Hellbugged - re the photos, can you also please post a photo of where the ends of the sway bar link rod attaches to. Little hard to work out in the
photos you already added, but it looks like it attached to the spring plate. Is this right.
On a final note, this message was not directed at any one person or meaning to attack any one person, but in the hope that I can look forward to
learning more about this subject and this will aid in the setting up of my own car.
Regards, Kevin
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1500S
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| posted on October 27th, 2009 at 04:11 PM |
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{{{{In addition, you said that the camber compensator tries to keep the axels parralell so if one wheel goes positive the other wheel will try to go
negative. For this to happen, wouldn't the compensator have to be pivoted in the centre. Maybe they are and I have answered my own question. Again,
have never seen this setup before sorry.}}}}}}
As it's 40 years since I've seen one but I think the ones around then which was sold by VW agents were Empi? Anyone?? They had around a 1" dia.
hole in the centre of the cradle under the diff. This has a rubber bush, a large flat washer and an M8 bolt through to attach to the spring which had
a hole in the centre. The hole in the cradle also allowed the diff drain plug to be removed for oil change by removing the rubber bush. Hope that
explains how the bar was pivoted.
DH
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vwo60
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| posted on October 28th, 2009 at 08:56 AM |
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First off to matberry at corooy, i m currently home from overseas were i work, you are more that welcome to contact me on the site and i will give you
my phone number and i will take you for a ride,camo and 1500s, yes the camber compensator that swayaway makes piviots in the centre, the bracket that
bolts to the gearbox has a bolt through it that runs down the centre line of the car, there is a eurathane bush bolted to the spring, the old style
has a bolt that just goes through the spring and bracket verticaly, yes i have limited the downward wheel travel, i welded up the rebound stops and
then ground the down untill they did not top out on the road, you have to be carefull because if you limit the travel to much you will spin the rear
inside wheel on tight corners, so you have to experment with this one,i have about 4 degrees of positive camber now, the swing axle rear end has a
major problem with its high roll centre, when you go around a corner all of the force generated are transfered into the side plate of the gearbox,even
with negitive camber you will eventualy go fast enough for the car to roll around its centre and the wheel on the outside will tuck ,sway bars in this
case are just deadly,no trasnision, just you going of the road, the compensator in this case is attempting to transfere some load to the oposite wheel
keeping it in the negitive so you do not get the tucking of both wheels, it will happen eventualy as you go faster and generate more centrifugal force
it will overcome the spring and then you go of the road as well, limiting the downward wheel travel is manditory on a swing axel as well as a good 4
wheel alignment if you want the car to be safer at its limit, if you purchase a compensator get the swayaway as it is much better quality that the
kmart version, i just bought one in from the states , it cost $169..US and had to wait to have it made,as i said swayaway does not make a rear sway
bar for the swing axel only the compensator,i only encourage people to educate themselves on there future purchase's and do not rely on some
manufactures blurb.
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