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 utter buggery
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| posted on August 15th, 2010 at 11:32 AM |
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Camber Compensators
Hey all,
Just wondering if Camber compensators will bring my rear wheels more upright on my bug? as it is fairly low and with the tyres sitting at this angle,
tehy aren't going to do many miles at all!
Any advice is helpful.
Cheers, Jacob
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vwo60
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| posted on August 15th, 2010 at 01:00 PM |
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Hi,
A camber compensator will have the oposite effect, it will apply force to the bottom of the axles and probably increase the negitive camber, if you
want the car to handle you will need to raise the rear of the car so there is about 1 to 1.5 degrees of negitive camber and then you can fit the
camber compensator
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utter buggery
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| posted on August 15th, 2010 at 01:43 PM |
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Thanks vwo60, so you're saying that the only way to straighten up the wheels is to raise the car again? I think I'll just let it be if that's the
case haha 
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HappyDaze
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| posted on August 15th, 2010 at 03:53 PM |
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Depending on the way the comp. spring is set up. I don't think you need to adjust the torsion bars at this stage, you would find a great improvement
if you fitted a comp. spring correctly, with the car the way it is.
The spring should support some of the rear end weight, and - if adjustable - can be tensioned up to give somewhere around 1 to 2 degrees neg. camber,
depending on what you are doing with the car.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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vwo60
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| posted on August 15th, 2010 at 04:15 PM |
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Hi Happy daze,
Could you please tell me how you set up the camber compensator, it is not disigned to carry the weight of the car, the weight of the car is disigned
to be carried by the springs, if you use the swayaway style it preloads the axle and acts a negitive spring, depending on your rear end set up it can
cause the rear end to end up with some negitive camber, the other style which has a loop around the axle does the same thing as you have to use a
floor jack under both camber compensators to fit the centre bolt, none of the camber compensators that i have used can raise the car
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HappyDaze
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| posted on August 15th, 2010 at 04:25 PM |
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If you let me know your email address, Ill send some pics and explain - too hard for me to do it here.
Been mucking about with compensating springs for 50 years.
Cheers, Greg
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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1500S
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| posted on August 15th, 2010 at 09:08 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
Hi Happy daze,
Could you please tell me how you set up the camber compensator, it is not disigned to carry the weight of the car, the weight of the car is disigned
to be carried by the springs, if you use the swayaway style it preloads the axle and acts a negitive spring, depending on your rear end set up it can
cause the rear end to end up with some negitive camber, the other style which has a loop around the axle does the same thing as you have to use a
floor jack under both camber compensators to fit the centre bolt, none of the camber compensators that i have used can raise the car
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The EMPI (??) ones from the 60s did actually take some of the cars load as Greg has said in his post. These are the ones with the straps around the
axle tubes. They only had a small curve in them and the mounting cradle under the diff gave a downward force on the spring which in turn, pulled the
axles downwards. It depended how much the springplates were lowered as to how much of the cars weight was supported by the compensator spring.
How do I know? Eveleigh Loco Works at Redfern turned out quite a few copies of the Empi bar in the later 60s!!
DH
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vwo60
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| posted on August 16th, 2010 at 09:23 AM |
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Hi 1500s,
i had a original empi years ago and still remember having to use a jack underneath the compensator to fit it to the gearbox when the car was on the
flat, still is not the answer to utterbuggery's question
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on August 16th, 2010 at 09:52 AM |
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mine is "preloaded" on my car as well
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HappyDaze
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| posted on August 16th, 2010 at 10:08 AM |
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Check out the way Porsche and Mercedes Benz had their compensating springs set, and also F.Vees, and you will see how it SHOULD be done.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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1500S
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| posted on August 16th, 2010 at 04:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
Hi 1500s,
i had a original empi years ago and still remember having to use a jack underneath the compensator to fit it to the gearbox when the car was on the
flat, still is not the answer to utterbuggery's question
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Maybe to clear things up, there looks like there are two types of Camber Compensator bars. The first one, Empi, I am talking about has a large cradle
which is held in place with four of the diff studs. The bar has eyes at each end as a normal spring. To this attaches the webbing strap which goes
over the top of the axle tube. There is nothing between the eye of the spring and the axle tube so there cannot be any upward or lowering force from
the spring to the axle. Hence the compensator will have some of the vehicle load on it when the car is on it's wheels.
The second type (your "Swayaway?? type ) I have seen has nylon blocks on each end of the compensator spring which actually contacts and forces the
axles upwards into negative camber so in that case there isn't any of the vehicles load on the spring.
So with all that, the type of compensator spring I am talking about (first type) could actually bring the wheels back towards zero IF the spring was
strong enough.
Don't ask me what keeps the second cradle in place! We made the first type from slightly larger section spring steel as that was what the Railways
had! The cradle was made from offcuts of 1/8" Stainless steel sheet.
http://vwplusvw1500.blogspot.com/2008/02/nos-empi-camber-compensator.html
DH
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vwo60
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| posted on August 16th, 2010 at 06:24 PM |
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i still do not know why you would want to use any form of camber compensator to set the ride height of the car,that's the springs job,the only one
that is adjustable is the hand made one that happydaze has made, the swayaway and the empi copy attach to the four eight mm studs on the side plates
of the gearbox and have the mounting holes slotted, having owned both of the camber compensator (empi and swayaway) for general road use i have found
the swayaway a better performing unit with a much better ride
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1500S
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| posted on August 16th, 2010 at 07:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
i still do not know why you would want to use any form of camber compensator to set the ride height of the car,that's the springs job,the only one
that is adjustable is the hand made one that happydaze has made, the swayaway and the empi copy attach to the four eight mm studs on the side plates
of the gearbox and have the mounting holes slotted, having owned both of the camber compensator (empi and swayaway) for general road use i have found
the swayaway a better performing unit with a much better ride
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The original question asked was:
"Hey all,
Just wondering if Camber compensators will bring my rear wheels more upright on my bug? as it is fairly low and with the tyres sitting at this angle,
they aren't going to do many miles at all!
Any advice is helpful.
Cheers, Jacob "
In view of this I just added to Greg's statement that yes, it can raise the rear as the compensator spring if it's the Empi style will take some of
the load. Do I use them now? .... no. A Commodore wouldn't look right with one on it and I don't think it would help! There is no reason to put
one on my Notch these days but I did have one on a Notch in the 60s. There were handling benefits noticed on cornering and that was the main object
of the exercise back then. The then normal was to lower the springplates around 5 degrees and then pull it back to whatever the compensators spring
force was. As for anything technical about that 5 degrees who knows. That was what was being suggested at the time.
I now see that that bottom pic type actually mounts to the frame horns thus preventing any load on the transmission mounts.
As for "why would anyone.......? Simply I suppose is "because we could". If things aren't trialed, such as coil springs, we'd still be
driving cars around with cart springs on all four corners of "normal" cars.
Hope that explains some of the reasons.
Also better add! If anyone is thinking of using the Empi type in the top pic I posted on a swing axle Type 3, think carefully. It's actually
putting an upward force on the gearbox and engine and can crack the rear support mount on the body if the mount isn't adjusted right.
DH
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Stephen62
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| posted on August 18th, 2010 at 08:19 PM |
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Hi everyone (new to the forum)
I used to have a 70 swing axle beetle with I fitted a rear bar to. It was like a sway bar, but straight. It mounted to the frame horns and loose
bracketed to the axle springplate mountings. I was greatly suprised and happy with the huge improvement in handling. I figure that they made the rear
like a progressive spring rate. When driving "normally" the flex didnt reach the brackets so they dont do anything, but on fast corners with body
roll, they held the car upright.
Is this bar anything like a sway bar or camber compensator ?
Has anyone seen a bar like this ? - Most rear sways I see are more "u" shaped
Thanks for your help
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zayus
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| posted on August 19th, 2010 at 03:46 PM |
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Stephen, the sway bar you described sounds similiar to the old K-Mac sway bar, that I use to have my Beetle.
The K-Mac rear sway bar ran straight under the car - shock to shock. See very basic diagram!
Does anyone know if the the old K-Mac sway bar worked similiar to a Camber Compensator (CC)?
Have always been interested in getting another K-Mac sway bar, because I was told that a CC would ruin the gearbox, due to the stress it places on the
mounts.
Today, thanks to DH, have learned that the "newer" style sway bar mounts to the frame horns instead of the gearbox. Might just have to order a
Sway-a-Away CC.
Thanks
Note: the Swing axle diagram is coutesey of FJCamper @ http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=122651
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