| [ Total Views: 1820 | Total Replies: 28 | Thread Id: 98156 ] |
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 poe70
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| posted on August 3rd, 2012 at 01:03 PM |
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Body mods
OK guys, I've got a couple of questions that may have been answered on here before but,
1- I've seen bonnet & boot rubbers that fit on the bonnet not in the groove on the body. Can these fit my 1970 1500 bug and where can I get them
as I'd like to delete the rubber groove around the openings.
2. I've also seen on this forum & in magazines cars with holes or louvers cut in behind the number plate on the engine lid with the plate spaced
off the lid.
Does this help with the cooling as I was under the impression that with all engine rubbers in place that the engine compartment was a sealed area. If
it does work then I'll cut some holes behind my plate before paint.
I don't really want cabrio vents in the lid as I'd like to pinstripe the smooth decklid. Thanks guys
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cam070
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| posted on August 3rd, 2012 at 11:59 PM |
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The rubbers you are seeking do exist. They are commonly called Mexican seals. I'm not sure where to get them, but vintage might be a starting point.
I don't think classic sell them as I have asked George before.
I know some guys have found suitable rubber seals at Clark rubber.
Deleting the original seal channels is a good idea in my opinion. I've done it to my beetle and found a bit of rust behind that you would never have
known was there otherwise.......until it started bubbling through from the inside.
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cam070
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| posted on August 4th, 2012 at 12:33 AM |
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I found the seals you are looking for. You can get them from pierside parts in the US. Just search for werksberg.
http://www.piersideparts.net/
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poe70
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| posted on August 4th, 2012 at 10:17 AM |
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Ok, Thanks cam070. I thought rust might lurk under the seal channels as dirt and crud seam to catch there. I'll search for Mexican rubbers then.
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 Bizarre
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| posted on August 4th, 2012 at 01:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by poe70
I thought rust might lurk under the seal channels as dirt and crud seam to catch there.
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that seal is one of the dumbest things Mr VW ever did.
You can pull it off with pliers
You can get the Mexican seal from Vintage Vee Dub Supplies and other places.
It is what they used on Mexican built VW's when they realized it was extra work for a worse result
You can also get the rubber from Clark Rubber or Grippy
Have a look at Grippy web site for the different profiles listed here
http://www.grippyrubber.com.au/files/new_pinchweld.pdf
G700, G703 or G705 would work
I have used both and they are fine.
Here is the profile
Also have a look on my Members Ride thread for what I did
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=36756&page=3
Futue te ipsum!!!
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poe70
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| posted on August 5th, 2012 at 04:52 PM |
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Thanks Bizarre, Yep, I pulled the engine seal off today and the channel had some rust. Just surface at the moment but it was there. I'll look into
the rubber stores.
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modulus
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| posted on August 5th, 2012 at 06:58 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by poe70
...I'll search for Mexican rubbers then...
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Your internet search should yield interesting results.
hth
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Joel
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| posted on August 5th, 2012 at 10:05 PM |
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Poe, If you're planning future engine upgrades it is well worth adding the holes behind the plate.
As soon as you put a twinport doghouse cooler engine in a car with no decklid vents you're gonna create problems.
Those vents in 70s decklids weren't put there for no reason....
A 70 bug would have originally had a vented lid anyway unless it was the 1300 pov pak.
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poe70
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| posted on August 7th, 2012 at 07:31 PM |
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Thanks Joel, My bug is a German 1970 and as far as I can tell it has the original decklid but it has no vents just a 1500 badge.( which I have removed
). The car has had a respray in a slightly different shade of blue but the underside of the lid is still original Space Blue. Do you think the German
assembled bugs may have had a smooth lid with no vents? I am planning engine work further down the track so I will add some vents behind the plate
now.
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 helbus
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| posted on August 7th, 2012 at 09:04 PM |
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We had an Aussie built 1300 and it had the smooth decklid.
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zayus
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| posted on August 10th, 2012 at 08:13 PM |
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Is it a 1969 1500?
The '69 didn't have vents in the engine lid.
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vwo60
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| posted on August 10th, 2012 at 09:33 PM |
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I have a 60 beetle with all the tin in place and good rubber seals on the engine lid and around the engine, it runs a 2054 with dual webers along with
large valve heads 1 5/8" exhaust dog house cooler ect,ect. oil temp never gets above 190 degrees F and the cylinder head temps reach about 350
degrees F this is all with out deck lid stand off,s or any holes cut any were, the car was designed to have all of this inplace to have positive air
pressure in the engine bay and to date i have not had any issues with cooling on any of my cars even in the hottest weather.
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Bizarre
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| posted on August 11th, 2012 at 10:20 AM |
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^^^ no additional oil cooler??
Futue te ipsum!!!
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vwo60
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| posted on August 11th, 2012 at 05:44 PM |
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All of my cars have aditional oil coolers, but all of them have all the tinware fitted and no mods to the rear of the car, i built a 2276 for my 60
karmann ghia with 10.8 to 1 compression ratio 48 drla,s, engle fk87 and street eliminator heads all with the boot closed and no temp issues or running
on, a lot of it has to do with how the engine was assembled, choice of components that do not work well together that actually cause the issues.it is
very important that all the seals are in place around the engine and the boot lid is sealed.
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Yogie
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| posted on August 11th, 2012 at 08:57 PM |
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We have a 68 with no engine lid vents. It is just a standard 1600 dual port with the dog house oil cooler and it never gets too hot, even in the Qld
summer. We do have all of the tinware and seals in place though.
Yogie
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Joel
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| posted on August 12th, 2012 at 12:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by poe70
Thanks Joel, My bug is a German 1970 and as far as I can tell it has the original decklid but it has no vents just a 1500 badge.( which I have removed
). The car has had a respray in a slightly different shade of blue but the underside of the lid is still original Space Blue. Do you think the German
assembled bugs may have had a smooth lid with no vents? I am planning engine work further down the track so I will add some vents behind the plate
now.
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Only if they were 1300.
69 was the last of the non vented lids with 1500s, yours may just be late 69 and classed as a 70.
Unless it started life as a semi-auto (not likely if it had a VW1500 badge) it is probably an aus assembled bug, they still said made in Germany in
early 70 even though they were assembled here from CKD kits.
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Matt Ryan
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| posted on August 12th, 2012 at 09:41 PM |
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I have a '61 beetle, stock 1300 twinport with doghouse fan and cooler and all tin and seals (no external oil cooler). First time I took it for a run
of more than 2 hours highway driving it overheated on me.
Propped the lid open to finish the journey, then later cut holes under the no. plate. Haven't overheated 7 years since.
Regards,
Matt.
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vwo60
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| posted on August 13th, 2012 at 09:07 AM |
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you should find out why it overheated as proping open the boot lid did not solve the cause of the over heating.
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Matt Ryan
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| posted on August 13th, 2012 at 09:38 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
you should find out why it overheated as proping open the boot lid did not solve the cause of the over heating.
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I was thinking more that your addition of external oil cooler is another fix for the inherent problem that the early intake vents can't physically
supply enough air to the larger fan.
Regards,
Matt.
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Joel
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| posted on August 13th, 2012 at 09:52 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
you should find out why it overheated as proping open the boot lid did not solve the cause of the over heating.
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It's pretty simple like Matt said above.
twinport/doghouse cooler engines have a bigger fan and bigger fans have this funny habit of drawing in more air.
The very reason the factory added the vents when the doghouse cooling system started and even made the vents bigger again the following year and only
left unvented engine lids on the smaller 1200 beetles without doghouse cooling system should tell you something.
The external oil cooler on yours would be helping with the issue but not everyone runs one.
Lots of people run 1600 and larger twin port/doghouse engines with unvented lids, they are not going to burst into flames driving down the highway,
well not without the aid of a $2 plastic fuel filter, but they are not going to get the best lifespan from those engines.
THose German engineers knew a thing or 2 about what they were doing.
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Matt Ryan
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| posted on August 13th, 2012 at 10:07 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
you should find out why it overheated as proping open the boot lid did not solve the cause of the over heating.
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It's pretty simple like Matt said above.
twinport/doghouse cooler engines have a bigger fan and bigger fans have this funny habit of drawing in more air.
The very reason the factory added the vents when the doghouse cooling system started and even made the vents bigger again the following year and only
left unvented engine lids on the smaller 1200 beetles without doghouse cooling system should tell you something.
The external oil cooler on yours would be helping with the issue but not everyone runs one.
Lots of people run 1600 and larger twin port/doghouse engines with unvented lids, they are not going to burst into flames driving down the highway,
well not without the aid of a $2 plastic fuel filter, but they are not going to get the best lifespan from those engines.
THose German engineers knew a thing or 2 about what they were doing.
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Yep,
Air flow for the non-doghouse 1300/1500/1600cc engines is 20 cubic feet per second at 4000 rpm. The doghouse cooling fan is wider and blows/sucks
around 25cf/sec @ 4000rpm.
Regards,
Matt.
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vwo60
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| posted on August 13th, 2012 at 06:01 PM |
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All well and good, but my 60 beetle with the 2054 ,44 idf's, 1 5/8' exhaust, 94mm bore, 74mm stroke, big valve heads, 9 to 1 lives in a 36 hp engine
bay with no stand offs and all the tin in place, no dog house cooler but a oil cooler at the front of the car, head temps are about 350F and no over
heating, oil temp max on this car is about 200F, a lot of over heating is in the engine with incorrect bearing clearences ect ect, if you have to
solve a over heating issue by proping the boot open it needs further investigating, the oil does not do a lot of cooling in the cylinder head area and
you need a cylinder head temp gauge to see what is going on there, when you build a engine the more care that is taken in the measuring and assembly
the better the end resault including having the engine running cooler no matter how modified it is.
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Joel
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| posted on August 13th, 2012 at 07:13 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
no dog house cooler but a oil cooler at the front of the car,
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Ah, so you're running the non doghouse single port fan?
that would be why you're fine, although I would have thought a pair of 44IDFs would be fighting the fan for air with a non vented engine lid at
highway RPMs.
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vwo60
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| posted on August 13th, 2012 at 07:56 PM |
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Thats the problem when people make statements with out the experence to back it up, see it all the time, as i said it is how you build it and set it
up, my ghia has a 2276, 10.8 to 1, 48 drla with a set of heads that flow very well, revs to 7500 RPM, same again, boot closed, all tin in place and
runs cool, all the way to valla and back, close to 2000 klms.
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Matt Ryan
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| posted on August 13th, 2012 at 08:43 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
no dog house cooler but a oil cooler at the front of the car,
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Ah, so you're running the non doghouse single port fan?
that would be why you're fine, although I would have thought a pair of 44IDFs would be fighting the fan for air with a non vented engine lid at
highway RPMs.
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It's not about the size of the engine, when you take the trouble to build it right like vwo60 and have every thing in place there should be no probs
in early engine bays, if you don't use the doghouse style shroud and fan.
It's the size of the fan that changes things in a doghouse setup.
From Rob And Dave http://www.vw-resource.com/fan.html
"The later wider fan pumps out roughly 10% extra air to allow for dumping the oil cooler air overboard, while still maintaining the same or better
airflow and pressure to the heads/cylinders. The slots under the rear window are simply not large enough to provide the doghouse fan with enough air
at higher speeds."
Regards,
Matt.
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vwo60
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| posted on August 13th, 2012 at 09:57 PM |
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All my engines have the wider fan fitted to a aftermarket 36 HP shroud, the one in the Ghia has a doghouse cooler and the one in the beetle is a
shroud without the cooler tinware. over thirty years of building modified vw;s tells me it works if you pay attention to detail. proof is in the end
resalt for me.
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modnrod
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| posted on August 16th, 2012 at 07:30 AM |
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It's funny reading about you guys saying the same things, but arguing about it nonetheless!
Even putting 2 extra degrees of timing in a stock motor will slowly add heat to an engine, it will take over an hour but it will happen, a motor that
is too tight even stock or a seal that is slipped by 1/2" will also do it. BUT, a 200HP motor cruising on the highway at 110kph only needs under 25
of those horses to maintain that speed, trying to go up Bathurst hill flat out lap after lap it would get hot without any extra airflow pretty
quick.
What us the opinion of you guys (coz you've been there done that by the sound of it) to adding some little holes or vents right at the bottom of the
engine bay lid? It's not for drawing in cool air, I was thinking more about letting the hot engine air out, because it's so low on the back of the
car it's probably a low-pressure area, will help draw out some of the heat, and possibly help draw in cool air from the top in the high pressure zone
behind the window. Would this work do you think?
I've just been thinking about using the high-pressure and low-pressure zones at the back of the car to full advantage.
Regards,
Dave
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cam070
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| posted on August 16th, 2012 at 10:58 AM |
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Maybe you need a GoPro and some little bits of wool (tufts) and sticky tape. You could then use the old school method!
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Ultimate-DIY-Automotive-Modification-ToolKit-P...
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Joel
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| posted on August 16th, 2012 at 12:58 PM |
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Below the number plate light housing is obviously the best spot for extra vents.
The factory started installing thermostatically opened flaps there on 74 and later decklids.
They wouldn't have gone to so much effort if it wasn't worth while.
The stock cooling system is very well engineered and can support high HP engines if everything is in check like timing, jetting, CR etc, there's no
need to reinvent the wheel just be wary of crappy aftermarket parts.
Most of the tinware fits terribly and many shrouds are lacking the proper internal vanes.
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