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Unleaded Petrol debate

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amazer kombi pilot

3,187 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#29384
I dont believe in the catalysts either. I cant see why there are so many different sizes. Presumably there would be 1 with 6mm fittings and one with 8mm.

But getting back to it, it doesnt matter which method you use. They are all wasted money cos they arent needed.

I will fill up at Fairfield if its at the right price. I'll need it to get home.

Where exactly does the fuel get laced with ethanol? All the oil companies deny it. The media says its there? Is there a dodgy little refinery somewhere adding it? Or are there ethanol tankers cruising the streets early in the morning topping up all the independant stations. Usually motoring bodies such as NRMA jump on these things, but they havent to date and yet the issue is supposedly widespread. The only thing the NRMA has done is to warn of the consequences of it, and surveyed the oil companies' stances.

Maybe it is there. But I am a paranoid conspiracy theorist (i bet the bastard CIA is responsible for all my SPAM) But I would like to see some evidence from someone other than a TV network. If it isnt a myth its probably the big refineries secretly lacing trucks going to independants to scare the public back to their own higher priced stations.

[Edited on 2-3-2003 by amazer]
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf

kombikim disfunctionally capable

1,521 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·

#29416
It was great to come in to work today & see Aussiebugs reply, it is the complete factual answer to the problem,full of info & big words I couldn't access at work, Amazer & Blue 74L summarized it in simple terms, Volkswagen Australia sent typical form lettered crap.
One other problem with LRP becoming evident involves the very short shelf life of petrol these days, & because very few people are buying it, it is sitting at the servo for a very long time, a freind of mine using it suddenly had a hell of a lot of trouble starting his immaculately maintained car after filling up, it was only solved by draing tank & refilling with ULP, the servo (in well to do area) said they hardly ever sell LRP anymore & had not topped up their tank for "yonks"

aussiebug Officially Full-On Dubber

246 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#29443
amazer wrote:Where exactly does the fuel get laced with ethanol? All the oil companies deny it. The media says its there? Is there a dodgy little refinery somewhere adding it? Or are there ethanol tankers cruising the streets early in the morning topping up all the independant stations. Usually motoring bodies such as NRMA jump on these things, but they havent to date
[Edited on 2-3-2003 by amazer]
I had a long chat with the technical director at the RAA (Sth Aus) last week, after the RAA did a check of SA stations for ethanol in fuel (it's illegal here in SA to have ethanol or MTBE in fuel). The RAA check found NO traces of ethanol added to SA fuels.

He was VERY knoweldgable about the problem in Sydney - he said that is was an ethnic "family" group of independent operators in Sydney's south-west... apparantly the same group who were responsible for lacing fuel with Toulene (imported as paint thinners to avoid fuel taxes) a year or so ago.

I'm not going to say which ethnic group the RAA guy specified as I don't wish to tar all people in that group with the one brush.

In the toluene case there was no actual detriment to the engine since toluene is a natural ingredient of petrol anyway, and is very high octane - 120. In fact Shell used to advertise years ago - "over a pint of Methyl Benzine (toluene) in every gallon of Super Shell". (I used to race go-carts many years ago and ran straight toluene in a high compression engine - it's a good fuel).

It was an "avoid tax" issue and as a result - all toluene imported into Aus now has an added tax - thanks to that group.

BP has had E10 (10% ethanol) in many stations in NSW and QLD for several years, but those pumps are clearly marked - "E10 - contains 10% ethanol".

There is no federal law which requires companies to signpost the fuel ingredients like ethanol, so some places are taking advantage of the lack of laws. Some states (like SA and WA, DO have laws which prohibit the lacing of fuels with any type of oxygenate (alcohol and MBTE are the most common oxygenates added to fuel).

I guess it comes down to - if you buy from one of the major oil companies you'll have no problems (they have a reputation to uphold) but if you buy from independent and then find you car running like c##p, switch to another station and see if that helps. If enough people do that they would soon get the message :-)
Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
Repairs and maintenance for the home mechanic
http://www.vw-resource.com

bus914 Custom Title Time!

1,230 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#29452
unfortunately petrol station owners stand to gain big time from adding ethanol.


1. It causes fuel injected cars to use more petrol. (more litres sold)

2. They don't pay the excise collected from the consumer on every 5th litre sold when 20% ethanol is added. (clear profit)


...and as yet there is no penalty in NSW for getting caught except embarrassment by the media.

Unmarked tankers adding piss to the fuel in the early hours of the morning would look a strong possibility.

NRMA's Open Road told the story well, but their suggestions for dealing with the issue were an absolute joke. they've lost all my respect for their handling of this problem.

Aren't all big name petrol stations run as franchise operations? I suspect owners in western Sydney don't give a thought for the reputations of their parent oil companies when larger profits can be made. It’s not just the independents, I never deal with them anyway.

[Edited on 3-3-2003 by bus914]
[img]https://i4.ytimg.com/vi/KOKlJpsfCyk/default.jpg[/img] Click the thumbnail for video👍

aussiebug Officially Full-On Dubber

246 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#29603
BUs 914 said:

> It's not just the independents (adding ethanol)...

Well - maybe it isn't, but the RAA technical guy seemed to know a lot about it - it was the stink in NSW which made them carry out their own checks here in SA to make sure we weren't getting the Ethanol blends.

Another thing that bothers me is that BP (on their web site) talk about the method of blending the ethanol into the petrol - it can either be poured in and stirred or a much better way (I forget the term BP used now) but it meant that it mised better and stayed mixed, so the fly-by-night ehtnaol additions would almost certainly be pour and stir - no garrantee that it will stay mixed so you might get 10% at one part of the tank and 30% at another.

And I have yet to find out if it's normal distilled ethanol or anhydrous ethanol which mixes with petrol - or whether it even makes a difference.

If you distill and water/alcohol mix, you get only 96% ethanol - the other 4% water is chemically bonded to the ethanol molecules.

The remaining 4% must be removed chemically. So if "normal" ethanol is added to petrol, does the 4% water cause mixing problems??? If would certainly add to the lean-running problem for carburetted cars like the VW!

As far as I know - the "trick" ethanol was being imported as mouthwash base or something like that (to avoid any taxes) - I'm sure the 4% water would not be removed for THAT purpose.

All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not filling up in Sydney (sorry Sydneysiders)!
Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
Repairs and maintenance for the home mechanic
http://www.vw-resource.com

70AutoStik Insano Dub Head

730 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#30074
I happen to know someone rather high up with BP and I'll ask him about your concerns, AussieBug. As for some of the others: ethanol will mix with petrol quite effectively up to about 70% (ethanol to water) - I did some experiments in my younger years. However, at higher water levels it will start to settle out over time. 90/10 mix actually seemed to produce more power (mixed in at 10-30%) than straight petrol in my two-strokes!

Alcohol is hydroscopic (it has a tendancy to absorb water) and any alcohol-based fuel will absorb water from the air over time; but after about 15-20% the rate of absorption decreases dramatically. Small amounts of water (say, 4,5%) will show no noticable effect on performance and even larger quantities can be run effectively on a high-compression motor - at a lower temperature.

This tendancy of all alcohol-containing fuels to contain water does present a problem for metal fuel tanks and lines and can produce excessive amounts of corrosion, but again it's not such a problem if you go through a lot of fuel (and run a modern fuel filter. Some fuel line material (rubber) can be rather adversely affected by alcohol - it's worth checking.

Adding alcohol (usually in the form of metho - or denatured alcohol) to fuel that has been contaminated with water has long been known to be effective and has been common practice in these rougher parts of the country for a long time. The alcohol added (some more experienced practitioners suggest up to 10-30%) does lean the mixture, but the higher octane rating, combined with the boost of the water, tends to couteract it and produce a quite useful fuel.

P.S. Sorry about the long post guys: especially as I have seen some data on diluting of fuel in NSW I can't legally share. Take the advice of the guy above who tells you to avoid stations where you've received dodgy fuel - unless you live in the country, where the owners have a bit more to deal with and a bottle of metho will probably fix it (or the next tank.)

amazer kombi pilot

3,187 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#30118
OK well maybe I will have to eat my words. I found some ethanol. Did my usual trick of checking out the 3 petrol stations on the way to school, stopped at the cheapest on the way back. Each bowser had a sticker on it "octane enhanced with ethanol"

Had to go back to caltex. Mind you, it would probably make my kombi run better seeing as its so rich at the moment.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf

aussiebug Officially Full-On Dubber

246 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#30189
70AutoStik wrote:I happen to know someone rather high up with BP and I'll ask him about your concerns, AussieBug.
Thanks - I'll be interested in your info.
As for some of the others: ethanol will mix with petrol quite effectively up to about 70% (ethanol to water) - I did some experiments in my younger years.
Interestiing - that's a LOT of water content to get mixed into the petrol.
Alcohol is hydroscopic (it has a tendancy to absorb water)

This tendancy of all alcohol-containing fuels to contain water does present a problem for metal fuel tanks and lines and some fuel line material (rubber) can be rather adversely affected by alcohol - it's worth checking.
Agreed - newer synthetic rubbers can usually cope with alcohols, but your old rubber lines might start leaking is you use E10 or similar petrol (containing alcohol).
Adding alcohol (usually in the form of metho - or denatured alcohol) to fuel that has been contaminated with water has long been known to be effective
In absording any condensation in the tank - yes. But Metho is a mixture of Methanol and Ethanol (the original name is methylated alcohol) - which is done to make the ethanol undrinkable by the way - makes it more of a problem fuel. ethanol contains 39% used oxygen so a 10% mix with petrol makes the VW engine run 3.9% lean. That's bad enough, but if you use Metho - the methanol contains almost 50% used oxygen - then 10% (for exmaple) metho in petrol will make it run even leaner. Lean means hot and hot means it will need higher octane. As 70autostick said above, the nature of alcohol can counter this to some extent (evaouprative cooling is improved and it has a high octane number) but the engine won't be happy if it has any significant amount of alcohol mixed into the fuel, unless you increase the size of the main jet, and maybe even the idle jet (since it supplies some fuel up to about 2500rpm).
Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
Repairs and maintenance for the home mechanic
http://www.vw-resource.com

Purple Martin Fahrvergnugen

913 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#30199
I've heard of people using water injection to make the engine run cooler (and cleaner) and increase performance. Does water absorbed in ethanol have a similar effect, or am I just getting my chemistry confused?
1959 red & white Beetle
1975 Kombi camper

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#30229
Purple Martin wrote:Does water absorbed in ethanol have a similar effect, or am I just getting my chemistry confused?
"Absorbed" is not quite the right word.

Water will mix with polar sovents such as alcohols, they are soluble in water.

Water will not mix with non-polar solvents such as petrol, oil, diesel.

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

70AutoStik Insano Dub Head

730 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#30290
As for some of the others: ethanol will mix with petrol quite effectively up to about 70% (ethanol to water) - I did some experiments in my younger years.
Interestiing - that's a LOT of water content to get mixed into the petrol.

Oops! typo! For petrol read water - at that ratio the water will settle out rather quickly (and will sometimes form a "gel" - I'm not sure exactly what it is, my home laboratory was inadequate to analyze it!)

[Edit] BTW - the amount of Methanol in metho is rather small, just enough to make a normal person puke if they drink it - it is still enough to send alcos blind if they drink it long enough, though. (pretty sad to even think about.)


[Edited on 6-3-2003 by 70AutoStik]