sorry, that was pretty long, and sorry if it rubs anyone up the wrong way.
in the beginning, the universe was created.
this made alot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move.
Thats what I enjoy, a statement that makes sense, a statement that doesnt require you to accept anything as granted, but to question everything you are told and to use your brain to work it out.
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
well said starbug well said!
like i said mine are also loong, but possibly worth it. might post them soon
HotRodMatt wrote:Neither party need to have the truth to find the truth - it is a long long journey.
My question is, then where do we find the truth? It has to come from somewhere, and truth logically must be absolute.
The truth I believe is in the bible.
and neither of us is prepared to move from our positions, therefore, no truth will be found in this discussion.
That is incredibly arrogant. You have no idea of what will move me from my position. You may be locked into your opinion, I have an open mind. I will never say that I am right. That is the difference between one who seeks truth and one who accepts dogma (a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true).
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, I was just calling it as I saw it.
Lets take a different tack. If you critically assess the bible to be inaccurate, flawed and/or incorrect, then you are inferring it is wrong and not the truth. So what you are in effect saying is that your position is correct. That's ok. There is nothing wrong with saying you are right. I might not agree but so what. The trite post-modern 'Dogma' of relativism has told us it not ok to say someone elses beliefs are wrong. Don't be sucked in to that. If you think someone is wrong then just say, say it nicely but say it.
Now, you said I don't know what might move you from your position. I didn't get the impression you wanted to move. I was mistaken. What are you looking for? What is it that you hope to find?
[Edited on 18/3/2005 by pete wood]
what hotrodmatt is saying is that through discussion debate etc, the truth can be found, it might be one persons perspective it may be anothers, or it may be that through discussion and debate that logic appears due to the debate process... argument, rebuttal, lather rinse repeat.
the more questions asked the more answers revealed. the more answers revelaed the more logic and sense things make. in this particular debate it will not happen overnight, but it will happen.
anyone else notice how much the religious debate resembles shampoo?
this is a topic so complex that it will possibly take thousands of years to truly find an aswer, and by then its possible three things will have happened...
A) supreme overlord of the universe takes over the earth and bans religion altogether as he has proof and records of what REALLY happens
B) supreme overlord of the universe takes over the earth and shows us a new religion as he has proof and records of what REALLY happens.
C) I take over and we all become lazy dreadlocked rastas.
take your pick... kikko for supreme overlord of the universe!
P.S. sorry to kinda ruin the mood but i believe there has to be an elemnt of humour in any topic of debate, otherwise people on both sides get cranky and they have to take a timeout.
[Edited on 18-3-2005 by Kroozin_Kikko]
Starbuggy,
Waxing philosophical is one thing, but science is built on theories. A number of these theories are well proven. A whole nother bunch are taken for granted. People often forget this.
Let's not group all religions together either, they are not the same. Each one is different in very important ways.
You want to blow them off fair enough. Christianity seems to copping some of the heavier blows. But, I believe the bible is right.
I want to ask you, what if the God of the bible is the God of reality?
I figured out the consequences for me if I'm wrong. What about you.
well i guess we're going to hell... party at satans place... byo water and chips
Kroozin_Kikko wrote:so johnno, are you a young earth creationist? (yes i have been reading dawkins), as in you refuse to see the proof of objects being billions of years old, and believe the old testament literally in saying that the earth and the universe is only thousands of years old?
That's right Kikko, and I question evidence which proves objects being billions of years old.
😉Jonno,
one day we're all gonna get u back for starting this thread....😀
i think we're all going to sit back and laugh at this one day when supreme overlord of the universe settles it for us
The first organisms were asexual and made identical copies of themselves - however they evolved to sexual animals through favourable mutations. So there originally was no egg.
So the egg only came about...after the chicken came about? :P
Could you help me with this one, Jon. :duh Seriously, I'm interested in how the egg/chicken (or chicken/egg) thing started in your opinion. u2u if you like.
Kroozin_Kikko wrote:i think we're all going to sit back and laugh at this one day when supreme overlord of the universe settles it for us
You mean you?
THe MC Bat Commander's motto: "Never do now, what you could do for 24 hours straight, all night, the night before."
but of course boozer, who else?
pete wood wrote:Jonno,
one day we're all gonna get u back for starting this thread....😀
haha.. hey 5 pages. I think we could make 10 at least, especially when Jon explains how the chicken came before the egg.
😉Kroozin_Kikko wrote:but of course boozer, who else?
me.
THe MC Bat Commander's motto: "Never do now, what you could do for 24 hours straight, all night, the night before."
he already has... but heres my story
when we began as single cell organisms, we reporduced asexually... an exact copy of the original being, over time these cells evolved into muticellular amphibic life... these amphibians laid eggs on the bottom of the oceans in which they were fertilised by each other (at this stage all were still hermaphrodites) as evolution continues along time many of these creatures spent more time on land than underwater, and thus our first land walking creatures came to be. a few million years later... reptillian animals known as dinosaurs came to be, and at the very end of their time some had evolved leathery wings with which they could fly, one species even evolved feathers. it was known as the archaeopterix. but it was reptillian still, and thus it laid eggs. it was labelled the first 'bird' to have ever existed. reptillian features are still noticeable in birds today, ie; their feet.
to put it simply, i think the egg came to be way before the chicken. no one ever said it was a chickens egg we were talking about...
the chicken can not be seperated from the egg, eggs are little chickens,
the chicken evolved from more basic organisms and being an egg is part of being a chicken,
being a chicken is part of being an egg and being an egg is part of being a chicken, they evolved together as one creature for the purpose of the survival of a Gene.
In the Book, "The Selfish Gene" Dawkins explains that a chicken is simply an egg's way of creating another egg, a human being is a gene's way of replicating itself.
Click here to Check out "the Selfish Gene"62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
Somewhere down the line asexual organisms mutated and reproduced with another organism which gained favourable traits from both parents. This mutation was favourable in their environment and the species survived.
there are lots of organisms which are sexual and asexual. For example common grass can reproduce asexually, but it can also let off its seed in the wind so it can spread its growth and adapt to local conditions by mixing its genes.
Even if you try to disprove evolution, it is a hell of a lot more rational than just blindly believing a metaphoric ancient document written by humans.
Jon
pete: if god is the be all and end all of reality, then when that day comes and god makes themself known, either through visual confirmation, or, as is more likely a case, turning up unexpectedly in someones fiendishly difficult equation... then i will think about it.
my point is, science can wax philosophical, but they also have the sums right there to back up their philosophies. all this multiple universe and superstrings and beginning of the universe (i have plenty of nice thick books dealing with this stuff in my bookcase)... its all there in numbers which someone/s have painstakingly worked out. some theories may not be right, but at least they have the math there if they are!
has anyone tried to prove god mathematically?
in the beginning, the universe was created.
this made alot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move.
Starbuggy,
If God created everything, then he also created maths. Trying to describe him using maths is like trying to describe what my character and lifeplans are by measuring my beachbuggy. All those thick books were written by men. Men are God's creation, his greatest creation, but still his creation. The Creator measures the creation and not the other way round because, God the Creator is outside his creation.
Science is at it's heart, is an effort to explain what we see around us by measuring and inspecting it. Science is not at it's heart at odds with God. The bible doesn't tell us everything about creation, and God gave us great minds to explore his creation and enjoy it.
Now, many people have tried to figure out what God is like using his creation as measuring stick. The scientific term for it is 'natural theology'. In the end it is extremely tentative. Using natural theology we can only really say these sorts of things; He provides day and night, rain and sunshine, warmth etc for us. He provides us with the ability to multiply and prosper. He made the universe in an ordered way. All these facts can be measured using maths. However, none of them describe who God is personally or what his plan is.
That is why he came to earth as a man to speak with us and tell us what he is like and what his plan is. That man is Jesus Christ. His words are recorded in the bible.
If god created everything........
there goes the objective angle right there.
If we are to assume this as true without any real back up, we can proceed to swallow all sorts of assumptions without Question.
If the sky is pink then all the people who see a blue sky must be mislead,
or Alternatively, the Sky is not Pink and God did not create anything because he is an imaginary figure.
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
so are you saying that you believe, because you fear the consequences of if you are wrong? Isn't that using fear and intimadation to maintain a control measure over a group? if the answer was god then,what was the question? If there is an all seeing compassionate god why would he want us to bow down to him and collect money and make wars in his name. wouldn't he be happy to just see us reach enlightenment and realise that he is why we are here. If people need their faith to cope with their day to day lives, then I do not believe people should disresept or try to change them. lets hope that they also show the same respect for their fellow passengers on this planet hurtling through the cosmos.
[Edited on 18/3/2005 by eirecooled]
Problem: I got probed by Aliens last night...............and I think I like it!.........E.T call ME.
yes, that is a big "IF"
Jon
The words u r all using are from the english language and were slowly put together and educated to the peasants merely to control and to attain some order, we se the word God which should really be spoken as good and then if we turn it around the opposite to God is dog, just as the opposite to live is evil, take the d from dog and you have devil, so the oppostite to life is death, so we are threatened with evil behaviour bringing us before the devil and I could go on about this forever but by the 1500's the average english population had been frightened by a flying dog, hence the devil appearing as a bat like creature and all these things have been injected into our European culture and just as several other cultures have there own belief, I think you'll find that most of it is designed to keep law and order, you can quote all the scripts you wish, if you look deeply enough you will probably see more clearly, to live your life christian like would result in no doubt a fairly resonable lifestyle if everyone was to do the same even if you took God and satan out of the equation. What we do know for a fact is the present, make the most of it and certainly live without fear. The only way you are going to know the facts is by dying and nobody's coming back to let us know. I personally put faith in myself and hope that if there is a God I haven't done anything to offensive and he's watching over me. Let's face it if he is what they say he'd be one cool ally and as far as I can gather it's the other dude that gives you all the punishment and punishment is what I don' t like, hang on a minute, now I'm talking s**t, I'm oughta here and back to the shed, I've got VW's to play with!!!!
Did God create what is written or men in their quest for power and control??
Ancient scripts thousands of years ago maybe have been more pure...but try and read between the lines now days....
The bible became law...it was writen by people wanting to control thier particular society at a given time...hence the differnet bibles and editions...it is rewritten to suit the times of a given society....
Then we had secular governments in modernised western countries...the bible became less powerful but still does hold power for some....
Because you do not believe all you read in the bible as true does not mean that you do not beleive in a higher being....a creator...All cultures and civilisations believe in the creator...God....there must be something in it??
Chicken and the egg....the selfish gene....cloning...does away with the egg....and sperm....a very hot subject...and very scary if used by the wrong people ....
God created man to think....and be able to create...hence all our sciences and arts...we are amazing creatures...and the most cruel at times
In an even highwer scheme of things....is our god the creator or was he created..one of many?? Is he really infalible??? Is everything that is created perfect...as intended....until you create you never know...then you have to somehow control or remake the creation if it's not operating in the desired way...even destroy something??
As horrible as it may seems maybe our desasters are meant to make us stop and think about what we are all doing...many lives many be lost as we've seen lasdt Boxing Day.....it seems to work for a while but then we all get on with the crap we were doing when something happened....some don't even notice
Hey it's a big subject...😀
What was the first post that started this discussion...I couldn't get the pic up??
LSD
limited slip differential.... what has that got to do with this thread?
Problem: I got probed by Aliens last night...............and I think I like it!.........E.T call ME.
it began with a story that has been deleted jenz ill pass it on.
hmmm so man viewpoints to argue
there is a god and he controls everything we do
there is a creator but he's more like a kid whos got an antfarm
there is no god
there are many gods - worship one or die
there is a god and his name is kroozin kikko
myself... i have no god but i live by the teachings of a man wha was believed to be posessed by a god: i dont believe that part but what he wrote and spoke makes so much sense. heaven and hell are a state of mind, not some imaginary place where the only way to find it is death...
in my honest opinion, majority religions such as christriany, catholicism etc were created by those in power as a measure of control. the bible is a set of rules cleverly masked in fiction to subliminally control. those who did not conform to that rulers religion (rules) were punished killed exiled etc.
what better way to make kids pay attention... do this and this and this or you will spend eternity in a blazing inferno of torture and malice and shaq movies.
notice how women have no rights in the bible? thats because they had no rights at the time, and thats because its the way they wanted it to stay forever.
dont get me wrong, im totally open to anything that comes my way, but what i hate is when people try to shove their religion in your face. for example i did some stand up in camden late last year aspart of a yr 10 formal entertainment, later that evening one of the parents approachedme and asked me if i could do a routine at her church... the rest of the night she was at my neck bashing me with a bible and how much of a contribution i could make to gods cause! yeah right! more like get more donations in the plate.
kikko we have a lot to talk about when we meet next week lol
...know what you mean *jenz decides not to use Jesus smilie this time*
Yep...I wonder who the ultimate god is though???
I can really relate to the kid with d ant farm analogy :tree
jenz im not gonna be at the nats, im going to have to posess the body of pyro for a conversation. im on a hiking competition that weekend, i promise ill take photos!
