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Herbie 53 Bugs are not nearly enough

764 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#324186
thats why Dodge is a godess of the forum


Johnny 777, perhaps you could post a link to the article that started this thread, as neither you nor I Knew it would make 10 pages of debate and any newcomers have no clue where it all began or why any debate really started.

Better yet, I'll repost the Link, "CLICK HERE TO SEE WHAT STARTED THE DEBATE"

Let me know if you found it somewhere else.

Heres the text from that link

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Night I Died ; My near-death experience

Written by John Helms


Used with permission.:duh

It was the summer of 1969 on a hot August night about 11:00pm and I was out cruising in my '69 V.W. Beetle down highway 51 just south of the Tennessee-Mississippi state line. I had just bought a boss crome, eight-track Leer tape deck that day, and was listening to Cream's new song, "Born under a bad sign", cranked up loud so I could get the most out of my box speakers mounted over the rear seat. All of the sudden I had the strangest vision in my head that I was locked into a head-on collision and there wasn't any way that I could avoid it. My stomach felt kinda queasy and I started to get scared.

Just then, a car came out of nowhere going at least 100 m.p.h. As he tried to turn the curve in the road, the left side of the car lifted off the road because it was going so fast. When it came back down, the car was headed straight for me! All I had time to do was to turn my steering wheel sharply to the right in order not to take a direct head-on hit. Then the car hit me with tremendous force and a loud "boom" and my car spun around several times like a child's toy top. I knew that this was the end of my life.

When my car stopped spinning, I was experiencing a great deal of pain and the first thing I did was to feel my arms and body to see if I was dismembered. After I did that, I looked down at my left leg and saw that it was bent at a left angle like a backwards "L". I wasn't as worried about my leg as I was the pain I was experiencing inside my body. I knew that all my ribs were crushed on my left side, and I was afraid that they were puncturing my lungs, since I could hardly breathe, but luckily I wasn't bleeding from my mouth.

I looked out my window a Highway Patrol car came flying past me with his lights and siren on. He was chasing the drunk driver who had just hit me. I waved my arm at him for help, but I guess he didn't see me me waiving or else he wanted to catch the drunk who had just hit me. I didn't want to die sitting in my car, besides I thought it might catch on fire. With this thought, I felt an adrenaline rush and I managed to push open my caved-in door and drug myself out of my car and onto the street on my belly about 10 feet away from my car and rolled over on my back.


I looked back at my car and and parts of it were strewn down the street. I then looked up to the stars and told God that if He wanted to take me now that I was ready. Shortly a crowd of people came out of nowhere and huddled around me. I heard somebody tell the crowd to stand back so I could get some air. Everybody was making negative comments that I wasn't going to make it. I was in incredible pain and in shock also. Suddenly, all the pain from my neck down was shut off like a light switch. Then I saw a tunnel of white light - I felt my spirit leaving my body and I started to ascend upward into this tunnel of light at a very fast speed. I was dying! My mind was totally focused on this and nothing else. I wasn't conscious of the crowd standing around me, of my physical body, or anything going on around me.

I rose up the white tunnel of light faster and faster and higher and higher until I was miles above the stars. Then I cam to a stop and felt myself engulfed in an overpowering unconditional love, the likes of which I have never experienced in my life. I was at complete peace. The Bible describes God's peace "a peace which passeth all understanding". Complete peace, tranquility and harmony. It was what I always thought heaven would be like, except it was better and much more beautiful. Everything made complete sense to me. My mind was at one with God's mind and I was at one with God and the whole universe. A mere thought and you were immediately transported there! I felt I was in the presence Jesus and He said," Come on John, come go with me-I want to show you something". As soon as he said that, we were hovering over a beautiful white, christen beach along side an ocean or a large body of water that was a pretty shade of blue-green. And as if I was on a camera boom doing a movie, I came to a close-up of the sand. Then Jesus picked up a handful of sand showed it to me and said," look at this sand, John" as he let it slowly run out of his hand until only one grain of sand was left in the palm of his hand. He said," do you see this grain of sand, John?" I replied," yes, Lord". Jesus continued," every crises and traumatic experience that you have or will ever experience in your whole life on earth is as small and insignificant as this little grain of sand that I hold inhere in my hand as compared to the glory and joy which awaits you here in Heaven. No more worries, no more sorrow, no more heartache or loneliness, no more pain, no more physical disabilities, no more disease or illness -all that will be left on earth." I then laughed to myself at all the things that I was so worried about. I felt as though I was going to explode with joy-that I couldn't take being in the presence of almighty God any longer-of the awesome power and glory of God's infinite love and mercy!

Just then I felt myself ascending even higher in the heavens in the tunnel of light. All of the sudden I stopped and a huge hand slowly came out of the tunnel of light with the palm of his hand facing me and said," no John, I'm not ready for you yet." I said," please God, I don't want to go back". As soon as I said that I felt my spirit descending as quickly as I ascended, and felt my spirit come back into my body and then I felt the pain come back and I saw the people all standing around me and a preacher was bending over me and was saying words to try and save my soul from going to hell. I told him that I was a Christian and that I wasn't going to die, although he and everyone else was quite convinced that I was. About that time the paramedics finally came on the scene and loaded me onto a stretcher and into the "meat wagon" and I was off to Baptist Hospital.

All of the doctors who helped with my surgery told me that I shouldn't have lived through my accident and that it was a miracle that I was still alive. I know God saved me for a special purpose in this life and I know that I am accountable to Him for what I do with it. I have gone through many difficult times since my "near death experience"-times when there didn't seem to be any hope left - I just wanted to give up on life and call it quits, but I always think back on my "NDE" and it reminds me that there really is a God in Heaven, because I met Him in a very personal and dramatic way. I know that what I experienced was real, even though other Christians think I'm nuts when I share my testimony with them. I also know that He does love me, even when I think He doesn't and everyone else has deserted me, I know that He is there for me. This gives me hope to go on when life seems hopeless and something to look forward to after my life on earth is over. Death is only a transition to an eternal life with God if we only accept Him as the Lord of our life and believe in Him through His son, Jesus Christ.

If you are going through difficult times or have doubts about God's promises and what the Bible says, just put your faith and trust in the Lord and pray to him for help and guidance even though nothing makes any sense now- then just take it one day at a time. I hope my real-life testimony has helped you in some way. You know, Jesus didn't tell us this life was going to be easy, but we can persevere with his help and by his grace.



Note from webmaster: John is a wonderful artist and I asked him if his NDE (near-death experience) influenced his painting in anyway?

John's Reply: Maybe in a subconscious way but what my NDE HAS taught me is to be kind to people less fortunate than myself - to be more giving of my time to people who really need a friend - when other people ignore or shun them, like an old lady who lives behind me an is lonely and needs someone just to talk to. She really appreciates me taking the time to visit her-same with a little crippled man I've known for years. He has no friends and sits alone in his wheelchair in a nursing home-all he does is watch TV and sleep and eat-he doesn't have any friends, except for me, I guess. and when I go to visit him or take him to Wal-Mart to buy some things he desperately needs, he really appreciates it and the time I spend with him. I don't have much financially speaking, but I 've found out that rich people as well as poor people want someone to spend time with them-seems like people are lonely these days and need time spent with other people.

God showed me that this time that we have here on earth, which is only a blink of an eye, is a test to see where we fit in eternity-in heaven or in hell.....What we do with our life and how we conduct ourselves is his test for each person on earth -to love one another as He loves us, and things that we don't understand - we won't have the answer to until we get to heaven.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

read this then go back to page 1 but realise that many people have edited their posts so it may not make total sense.

Enjoy.
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.

penguin ackkkkkk thhhhhpt!

3,383 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#324194
May I ask why bother to repost that? From what I have read of this thread my thoughts as to the reason he deleted the post was that he was uncomfortable with the response from people and so he deleted it.

If its to keep the thread alive, good on you for a self licking ice cream.

As I no longer see a reason, I am out of here.
'Ah, whatever................'

ColumBUS Hail To The Bus Driver!

3,601 posts · joined Sep 2004 ·

#324206
Kikko, if what airfooled saw was a demon, that doesn't rock the Bible's solidity at all, but merely confirms the spirit world.

there is one word in that argument that makes it verrry shaky...

IF.
even christians have told us there is no hell and demons and the devil etc etc are merely metaphorical terms.

IF it was a demon, i'd believe it too. prove its a demon and ill follow you all the way

Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#324213
a disproportionate amount of the hillsong congregation is also under 25 as well.

Anthony Robbins is another thing, along with all those other "motivational" speakers. They all are quite a lot like cults. They talked about it on JJJ a while ago, how the seminars go for days on end and fatigue helps to coerce people into believing rubbish.
Jon

~air fooled~ two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl

1,429 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#324217
hey kikko, how bout instead of throwin up bullcrap arguements you try to prove what a ghost is then and how it fits into your rastafarian world?
everything dies baby, thats a fact..
maybe everything that dies one day comes back..
put your make up on and your hair up pretty..
and meet me tonight in Atlantic city..

Herbie 53 Bugs are not nearly enough

764 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#324219
cool,

it serves to show why I reacted.

and gives anyone who also finds it offensive a chance to discuss the topic how ever they see fit,

I dont expect anyone who has invested their life in their beliefs to abandon them, but I would like them to consider that they are only beliefs and not necessarily facts, and to ponder how and why they believe what they do.

If what they believe is solid then there is no harm in cross referencing it, if it wont add up or make sense when it is scrutinized, then why try to convince others that you posess the truth?
Accept it is nothing more than an opinion or belief that you cant back up properly.

I am not offering an alternative religion, I am not claiming to have the answers, or the questions, I am merely pointing out how and why its wrong
to tell others that you posess the truth if you cant prove it.

If you dont like the heat get out of the kitchen or show me you have a true undeniable factual belief that bears any real scrutiny.

I have just as much right to present this argument as anyone who tells me that God Exists or that something is the work of God or the bible has anything to do with the existence of God etc.

So get yourself a cup o tea watch this unfold.
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.

ColumBUS Hail To The Bus Driver!

3,601 posts · joined Sep 2004 ·

#324223
i dont think ghosts exist. light refractions coupled with an imagination can make anyone assume anything. the same as when one walks outside late at night and hears a rustling in the trees... its gotta be a mugger!

if ghosts were to exist it would prove there is another dimension in which our souls travel to, however this dimension is parallel to ours and whilst they may not be afflicted by walls, etc. they all still walk our earth in one way or another... not some ultra peaceful land of happiness and certainly not the fiery pits of hell... unless the ghost is walking in gloria jeans, then its hell.

dodge Fahrvergnugen

958 posts · joined Mar 2003 ·

#324225
tea..... mmmmmmmmmm.....
the peacemakers drink 😉

ColumBUS Hail To The Bus Driver!

3,601 posts · joined Sep 2004 ·

#324226
and i totally agree with herbie. dont tell me its fact if you dont have anything to back it up

Herbie 53 Bugs are not nearly enough

764 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#324235
if it doesn't add up, why believe it?
and as far as Ghosts are concerned, what people see are apparitions, whether they are actually Ghosts or not is not proven, merely speculated, They might be something totally unrelated to ghosts that we dont yet know about.
Same goes for Demons, merely speculation, however, U.F.O's are a different story,
If someone tells me they have just seen a UFO, I tend to believe them, because U.F.O stands for Unidentified Flying Object, if they see something an object flying and they cant Identify it, then that makes it a U.F.O. even though there may well be a very boring explanation as to what they saw, if they dont posess the explanation then it was to them, a U.F.O.
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.

~air fooled~ two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl

1,429 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#324239
Kroozin_Kikko wrote:i dont think ghosts exist. light refractions coupled with an imagination can make anyone assume anything. the same as when one walks outside late at night and hears a rustling in the trees... its gotta be a mugger!

if ghosts were to exist it would prove there is another dimension in which our souls travel to, however this dimension is parallel to ours and whilst they may not be afflicted by walls, etc. they all still walk our earth in one way or another... not some ultra peaceful land of happiness and certainly not the fiery pits of hell... unless the ghost is walking in gloria jeans, then its hell.
fair point, too bad two people saw the exact same thing in different areas in the same week though! as i had already stated... as for your alternative theory for if the ghost is real, with what evidence do you base this? are you not talking about something similar to this entire discussion which has a lot more evidence and proof going for it?

now i think your just waffling on about bullcrap that you yourself have no way knowing or proving....

no offense man, just trying to understand your justification for such statements..
everything dies baby, thats a fact..
maybe everything that dies one day comes back..
put your make up on and your hair up pretty..
and meet me tonight in Atlantic city..

ColumBUS Hail To The Bus Driver!

3,601 posts · joined Sep 2004 ·

#324305
i never said that ghosts dont exist, im not trying to ram it down your throat. im certainly not waffling on about bullcrap. that is what i think occurs.

im giving my point of view. please dont call it waffle, bullcrap etc etc. im sure i never said anything of the likes to you.

it is known to have the same ghost or the same object seen by different people. in my opinion this goes back to the imagination.

a girl walking through the park at night hears a rustling in the bushes. her friend hd been mugged there before, so it must be the same guy.

penguin ackkkkkk thhhhhpt!

3,383 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#324325
Herbie wrote:cool,
it serves to show why I reacted. and gives anyone who also finds it offensive a chance to discuss the topic how ever they see fit,

I dont expect anyone who has invested their life in their beliefs to abandon them, but I would like them to consider that they are only beliefs and not necessarily facts, and to ponder how and why they believe what they do.

If what they believe is solid then there is no harm in cross referencing it, if it wont add up or make sense when it is scrutinized, then why try to convince others that you posess the truth?
Accept it is nothing more than an opinion or belief that you cant back up properly.

I am not offering an alternative religion, I am not claiming to have the answers, or the questions, I am merely pointing out how and why its wrong to tell others that you posess the truth if you cant prove it.

If you dont like the heat get out of the kitchen or show me you have a true undeniable factual belief that bears any real scrutiny.

I have just as much right to present this argument as anyone who tells me that God Exists or that something is the work of God or the bible has anything to do with the existence of God etc.

So get yourself a cup o tea watch this unfold.
I am back now, so can answer what you have written. I have work commitments that take me away from my computer and so cannot always state a reason to stay here and watch what is posted (no matter how relevant someone may feel the conversation to be)

I don't care about heat or kitchens so that means nothing to me. (PS I don't drink tea)

Now you say that you are not offering an alternative religion or claiming to know the answers etc?
but you are.... why, because you are saying that what the others believe is wrong.
Thats why I have a problem with this thread. Nothing you say will change what I believe, nothign I say will change your beliefs, nothing either of us says will change anyone else's beliefs. Why? because they arepersonal.
Sure you may have a beef with certain people and the way that they have broached the subject with you in the past, but is that a reason to deride others beleiefs when they were not the party involved?
If I was cut off by a driver of a datsun, does that mean that I can hate or deride all datsun drivers? Just beacuse I have never done something does not mean that I will deride or demean those that do.

Simply because you do not agree with their point of view does not mean it is wrong. People are different (thank god- pun not intended) and that is waht makes it all fun. What one person thinks is science is anothers fantasy. Was the world always round? or only after it was proved? did man walk on the moon? were dragons real? science can revisit lots of things after proving them, and realise it was wrong. Ever heard of string theory? heres a basic link to it if you haven't http://superstringtheory.com/basics/basic4.html
So who's to say that what we have believed up until now is more correct or that string theory is more relevant to the world?
So why does something have to be fantasy until it is proved? we believe that there are quarks, (as a component of matter). ever seen one? has anyone? no, why, because we have merely assumed them to be there because our calculations say that they should be there.

But anyway, enough for fantasy... or is that science?????

If you feel so strongly about this issue, which it would appear you do. What have you done about it? Written any papers calling for open discussion/debate? Challenged a theological scholar of any faith/belief (not meaning that any of the people here who have responded are less than scholarly) about the existance of a 'God'?

As for your right to argue (which I thought this was not, I thought it was meant to be merely a discussion) I have no problems with that, but after the first reason for the discussion is raised and then removed because (I assume) the poster felt that it may have caused offence, why continue? They obviously felt that it was not appropriate to remain given the response. They reached the point where I hope that most people realise where pushing your own P.O.view goes from polite, to just pushing.

What it has shown to me though is that given the right circumstances you too will act just the same as the people that you seem to have an arguement with. If you read your posts you may find that you are trying to push your P.O.view as hard as those that you seem to deride.

As you can tell, I enjoy pushing buttons and shoting at things (as I have obviously done already 😀).
So please feel free to continue.

[Edited on 23-3-2005 by penguin]
'Ah, whatever................'

jenz58 Postal Menace

9,121 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#324593
....OK I'm in here....but not going to read today... I will save my energy for next week when I get home....you nearly got me to read it ...

Gotta turn off this machine NOW...before I read AND then have to reply 😉:P
"All you need is trust and a little bit of pixie dust!"

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=22473
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=56558#pid535643

...so I don't loose the links to my rides again hehehe

Oasis Going alone...

1,806 posts · joined Jul 2003 ·

#324694
~air fooled~ wrote:
Oasis wrote:Here here Herbie. I totally agree, and with Penguin. Air fooled, why does seeing a ghost prove God? If anything it only proves ghosts.
how can a ghost exist without any type of god or afterlife i ask you? if i see an image of someone passed, that is just that, an image, how exactly is that projected in that exact form? if we are without god the owner of that image is rotting away in the earth somewhere unknown.. its a physical impossibility in regards to science...

god cant be justified with science, thats why its called faith. if you choose to have no faith then that is your choice, i have faith for what i have seen and felt and if i am wrong when my time is up then i have lost nothing.

i myself believe in god but see evolution as part of the whole plan of things... maybe an each way bet!? hahaha.....
Well only if you assume a ghost is the spirit of a deceased person. What if a ghost is only what you see, i.e. it's a ghost looking thing that exists in this world we are in.. not some remnant of a previously living person from the past? How do we all of a sudden just KNOW what a ghost is? I've had a personal experience with a ghost but still don't see how it proves there's a God. It does prove that there's something I can't explain though.

I agree with you that evolution may be the method that God used to create living beings. Just a thought...

Also I have a strong faith, nor have I ever chosen not to have a faith... but faith is what you have for things that you can't see, not things you can, for to believe in things you can see requires no faith. That's why Christianity is a faith. You have to believe in things you can't see or prove, and for all those Christians that may want to shoot me down, your bible says, "without faith it is impossible to please God." You should revel in the fact that you believe in something that you can't prove.
"Tell him 'We've already got one'"

Herbie 53 Bugs are not nearly enough

764 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#324774
Penguin,

If you are unprepared to question how you came to believe what you believe, then you have more problems than we can help here.
You are obviously one of the percentage of followers who just like to follow without question, It takes all sorts to make the world go round.
Part of having an open mind is to question what is presented before you, you have chosen to accept that you should never question your faith in what you believe, so you are effectively locked in a box of iggnorrance, which is why you were told never to question your faith, once you are following, that will keep you in tow. A bit like being in a gongo line with Blinkers and ear muffs to keep you from outside distractions.
Like This 😀


Presenting an Argument is different to having an argument.

If you read slowly and be sure that you have comprehended exactly what it is that is written here, you may not actually object anywhere near as much.

I personally dont care what anyone believes untill it affects me, anyone trying to convince me that they have the Truth, needs to be able to prove it or keep it to themselves.

Alternatively, they can offer it up as a theory for intelligent discussion, but must present it as a theory or a belief, not a fact. (is there an echo in here? I'm sure that I keep repeating that)

How can I believe in string theory if I have never looked into it?
I shall endevour to learn more about it.
If I can prove it is hogwash, I'll let you know.

I can tell you what I do believe,

Some people in our society are not equipped to think for themselves, they could actually be dangerous if they do.
They need to be told right from wrong, mythology to remember little lessons to keep their minds baffled and keep everyone else safe.

I also belive that in every group of friends or people there is an idiot, if theres not one in your group of friends, then it might just be you.

If you never question, you will never know.
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.

penguin ackkkkkk thhhhhpt!

3,383 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#324791
Be careful with you wording - what you have written could be taken personally.
I have questioned what I believe. And I am quiet happy with what I found within, are you?
Why believe that you are superior to anyone else by believing that you must instruct or direct them or that they are incapable of determining their own destiny themselves? why not let them discover their path and future themselves?

PS. As I know I am not an idiot, and we are all friends here, how are you? (TIC)
'Ah, whatever................'

penguin ackkkkkk thhhhhpt!

3,383 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#324799
PS, why do you believe that I have not questioned? Do you know what my beliefs are? or what I have done to influence my life? Have I told you? I could be athiest or agnostic, christian or buddhist, I don't think I have ever said have I?
If what was written affects you, how does it still affect you after it was removed? and why (if you were successful in convincing some one to 'keep it to themselves') do you continue to push what you started?

Me, I don't care on this either way, but I can say that reading this is far better than reading MSDS's or preparing briefs on other matters.

Also I don't have a belief either way in string theory, but it is an interesting and contenious issue amongst a few friends who work in those fields that research this sort of thing. In this case I have accept that matter is present, and that it is formed from other particles of matter. I have no desire to explore that deeply a field that holds no interest.
I just put it up as a comparison between your 'can you prove it' arguement as the composition of matter is one of a number of vital underpinning theories within physics and critical to a lot of what is 'believed' by the scientific community.
'Ah, whatever................'

~air fooled~ two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl

1,429 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#324810
Kroozin_Kikko wrote:i never said that ghosts dont exist,
previous page, not many posts ago...
Kroozin_Kikko wrote:i dont think ghosts exist.
hmmm, backed into a corner maybe or forgetfull? either way man, as i was sayin, this is nothing personal. if your interested in clarifying your thoughts and explaining to me how a ghost could exist without some type of afterlife or spiritual powers, then im all ears...

oh and ps- seeing as though your a fan of science and using it to disprove god, can i presume you are fluent in maths and therefore probibility? what is the probibility that two people could see the EXACT SAME 'REFRACIONS OF LIGHT' and combined with their seperate 'IMAGINATIONS' arrive at the exact description of a ghostly looking human figure walking through walls without coersion in the same week? you must be a gambling man my friend...

i am not asking you to believe in ghosts, just asking you how it could be if you believed?

you seem like a pretty smart kid, but some maturity only comes with age my friend...
everything dies baby, thats a fact..
maybe everything that dies one day comes back..
put your make up on and your hair up pretty..
and meet me tonight in Atlantic city..

~air fooled~ two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl

1,429 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#324820
Oasis wrote:[
Well only if you assume a ghost is the spirit of a deceased person. What if a ghost is only what you see, i.e. it's a ghost looking thing that exists in this world we are in.. not some remnant of a previously living person from the past? How do we all of a sudden just KNOW what a ghost is? I've had a personal experience with a ghost but still don't see how it proves there's a God. It does prove that there's something I can't explain though. [/quote]

i have faith but avoid the church cos it doesnt fully suit my beliefs and isnt going the direction i feel is approprite. that said i havent explored every option, its only my previous experiences. i believe in someone i call god, and i try to life my life by the 10 commandments the best i can, thats as simple as it is..

if your prepared to say that ghosts dont prove god (or as you said " I've had a personal experience with a ghost but still don't see how it proves there's a God") then i think you had better have an arguement to support that rather then "It does prove that there's something I can't explain though". with all the evidence 'proving' the existence of god, and ghosts being reagarded as part of the spiritual realm beyond our physical world, you feel you can still reject this as proof of gods existence and pass off a ghost as something you just dont understand? but have no suggestions as to alternatives? i would love a proper scientific explanation for what a ghost may be if anyone is up to it, but no more bull crap about refracted light and imagination..see my previous post... lets get imaginative cynics!
everything dies baby, thats a fact..
maybe everything that dies one day comes back..
put your make up on and your hair up pretty..
and meet me tonight in Atlantic city..

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#324822
~air fooled~ wrote:with all the evidence 'proving' the existence of god
WHAT? Where?

~air fooled~ two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl

1,429 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#324844
notice the 'proving'... i was mereley stating that on one side of the arguement is all this evidence supporting the existence of 'god' and on the other side of the arguement was the explanation that 'its not proof of gods existence but of something i dont understand'.... evidence is heavily stacked on one side and im searchin for credible evidence of the other sides reasonings...

what is your opinion on this subject by the way matt? you seem one of the more objective and learned people floatin about here so im interested..
everything dies baby, thats a fact..
maybe everything that dies one day comes back..
put your make up on and your hair up pretty..
and meet me tonight in Atlantic city..

Herbie 53 Bugs are not nearly enough

764 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#324855
claiming gods existence does not = proving gods existence.

I am only opposing the claim that god is real, and I keep opposing it while it keeps being claimed.

If you have questioned yourself and are happy with what you find then you are happy.

You dont sound happy, you sound cross that you are being asked to prove any claim you are making.
why should this opportunity to explain your thoughts be cause for your anger.

My comments or words might be taken as offensive by someone who believes that ramming their own view at someone is'nt equally offensive, IE post number 1

You could just post, I am happy with what I believe, regardless of whether I can prove it or not, but respect that I can't expect anyone else to adopt my beliefs when I cant present them as verifiable facts.

but I believe you will not.
Prove me wrong.😀
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.

Oasis Going alone...

1,806 posts · joined Jul 2003 ·

#324877
~air fooled~ wrote:
Oasis wrote:[
Well only if you assume a ghost is the spirit of a deceased person. What if a ghost is only what you see, i.e. it's a ghost looking thing that exists in this world we are in.. not some remnant of a previously living person from the past? How do we all of a sudden just KNOW what a ghost is? I've had a personal experience with a ghost but still don't see how it proves there's a God. It does prove that there's something I can't explain though.
i have faith but avoid the church cos it doesnt fully suit my beliefs and isnt going the direction i feel is approprite. that said i havent explored every option, its only my previous experiences. i believe in someone i call god, and i try to life my life by the 10 commandments the best i can, thats as simple as it is..

if your prepared to say that ghosts dont prove god (or as you said " I've had a personal experience with a ghost but still don't see how it proves there's a God") then i think you had better have an arguement to support that rather then "It does prove that there's something I can't explain though". with all the evidence 'proving' the existence of god, and ghosts being reagarded as part of the spiritual realm beyond our physical world, you feel you can still reject this as proof of gods existence and pass off a ghost as something you just dont understand? but have no suggestions as to alternatives? i would love a proper scientific explanation for what a ghost may be if anyone is up to it, but no more bull crap about refracted light and imagination..see my previous post... lets get imaginative cynics! [/quote]

You have based your argument on ghosts being regarded as part of the spiritual realm beyond our physical world. That's a grave assumption that can't be proven. They may be regarded by you as that, and that's fine, but they could be something else, and if I could tell you what, I would be God.
"Tell him 'We've already got one'"

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#324891
~air fooled~ wrote:what is your opinion on this subject by the way matt? you seem one of the more objective and learned people floatin about here so im interested..
On ghosts or god?

~air fooled~ two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl

1,429 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#324893
thats the whole point of this.. none of this can be physically proven to the extent that some of yous want, but requires an open mind and the knowledge that science cant explain certain phenommenon within this world but some people here prefer to say ' well it doesnt make sense to be but im certain its not the work of god' because of their closed mind.

that is what makes me ask 'why' and 'what if' and leads me to believe in god amongst other things. maybe if you consider that ghosts MAY very well be proof of god and that ghosts cant be scientifically explained in this instance then no-one will have to bother proving to me how ghosts come to be if no god exists...

i just dont know how people can disclaim one therory without any type of proof or evidence or even idea pertaining to their own theory... if yous have absolutely no idea at least have an open mind and the maturity to consider that whilst you have an opinion and feel a certain way about a subject, you may not be right... open mind people...

oh by the way oasis, i would be interested in hearing your ghost story if you want to share... i have another one involving a physical presence..not mine actually, my nanas, but thats when it has the chance to become chinese whispers i guess...

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by ~air fooled~]
everything dies baby, thats a fact..
maybe everything that dies one day comes back..
put your make up on and your hair up pretty..
and meet me tonight in Atlantic city..

~air fooled~ two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl

1,429 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#324894
HotRodMatt wrote:
~air fooled~ wrote:what is your opinion on this subject by the way matt? you seem one of the more objective and learned people floatin about here so im interested..
On ghosts or god?
ghosts mate...
everything dies baby, thats a fact..
maybe everything that dies one day comes back..
put your make up on and your hair up pretty..
and meet me tonight in Atlantic city..

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#324913
Similar to Oasis.

I have never put much thought to them except to say whatever it is that people call ghosts are very probably something of this world. I do not doubt that people have seen/felt them or whatever but I doubt they know what they have seen or felt.

~air fooled~ two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl

1,429 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#324917
just another unknown in this world, that begs the open mind to question things...
everything dies baby, thats a fact..
maybe everything that dies one day comes back..
put your make up on and your hair up pretty..
and meet me tonight in Atlantic city..

~air fooled~ two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl

1,429 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#324997
i'm off on holidays till the 4th, will get back to anyones questions or theories then!
everything dies baby, thats a fact..
maybe everything that dies one day comes back..
put your make up on and your hair up pretty..
and meet me tonight in Atlantic city..