Quote "....maybe if you consider that ghosts MAY very well be proof of god and that ghosts cant be scientifically explained in this instance then no-one will have to bother proving to me how ghosts come to be if no god exists..."
I do think they may be proof of God, or at least point to something outside of our known world. My point is more that no one considers that they might have nothing to do with God. As soon as there is something that is too hard to explain in our "normal" physical world, people often cry "It's from God". It's both too easy and too difficult to say this. I don't think I'm actually disagreeing with you though, just keeping the options open.
Are ghosts echoes of dead people's spirits? Are they demons in disguise? are they apparitions? Light refractions? people whose bodies have died but they lived on? Angels? The Holy Spirit? Do they exist in this reality i.e. not from "heaven"? Are there millions of spirits walking around and we can only see some? How would we know anyway which of these (if any) are right?
My ghost experience was when I was in the old Bath Boathouse in Bath, England 3 years ago. I was in bed with my wife and someone/thing walked around our bed and actually lay down next to Louise. I heard the sound of someone in the room, and I could feel the bed depress but I didn't see anything. My wife saw him clear as day and described him to me afterwards. She was frozen in fear and shaking as she had this ghost next to her. She eventually hit me to get my attention and to ask me to hold her. He was occupying the same space as her on the bed. I rolled over and held her, and he left after a while. She didn't sleep all night.
[Edited on 24/3/2005 by Oasis]
"Tell him 'We've already got one'"
Herbie wrote:claiming gods existence does not = proving gods existence.
I am only opposing the claim that god is real, and I keep opposing it while it keeps being claimed.
You dont sound happy, you sound cross that you are being asked to prove any claim you are making. why should this opportunity to explain your thoughts be cause for your anger.
My comments or words might be taken as offensive by someone who believes that ramming their own view at someone is'nt equally offensive, IE post number 1
You could just post, I am happy with what I believe, regardless of whether I can prove it or not, but respect that I can't expect anyone else to adopt my beliefs when I cant present them as verifiable facts.
but I believe you will not. Prove me wrong.😀
Herbie,
I am not angry, why would I be? this is not about me it is about something that has you worked up, ifyou have been about and read a few posts of mine before youwould realise what I am like when I do get worked up. I can see that you have assumed because I have taken a stance opposite yours that you think I am one of those that you seem to be vehemently opposed. With regards to my beliefs, I am perfectly happy with them, but more importantly, I am happy with other people having theirs and allowing them to express in the way they see fit (I do not think the same can be said for you can it?)
1. I have never claimed that god exists. Again I state that what I believe is mine, and for me. What you believe is for you.
2. Why should I prove anything to you? I haven't asked you to prove anything. I have merely decided to take an opposite view of yours. Mainly I guess to simply see what you would come out with next
🙂
3. The offensive parts of you my friend seems to be in two parts. Yes you are offensive in that you are ramming your views down others throats, just the same as you seem to be opposed to. I do not think that I have tried to return the favour to you have I? All I have written is merely taking a stance opposite to your views.
The other is reading between the lines of your other post and calling people idiots when you have very little idea of who or what they are. No my friends are not, and neither am I, so does that make you one?
You see, all I have been doing is fishing, and you have taken the bait far better than any Scientoligist, Mormon or fervent Christian ever has. Its been fun so far.
You see, I am happy with what I am, I don't profess my beliefs to be the answer for all, only the answer for me
🙂'Ah, whatever................'
That great news penguin,
So let me get this right,
1. you are not telling me that God is real,
2. you are telling me that you belive god could be real but don't profess to know how, why and when.
3. you understand what the word "fact" means and can differenciate between facts and beliefs.
4.You like VWs
5.you understand that to oppose a view is free choice, but to present a veiw as an argument for disscussion means you need to be able to explain why you support such a view, and be prepared to have it questioned,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont have any problem with people believing whatever they like, except for when it affects my enjoyment of life.
I Believe Everybody has the right to believe whatever they want, but should be mindful of how their beliefs affect others and that their view makes only 1/5 billionth of the total views of the world,
My involvement with this disscussion is predomenantly revolving around the use or abuse of the definitions of ...
1. Facts
2. Fiction
3. Beliefs
4. Opinions
5. Proof
Not what people believe,
but more that they profess their opinion to be fact and not fiction, but can't prove it.
Reacting with Vigour doesn't prove much more than passionate beliefs.
I understand that a belief doesnt need to be a fact to be embraced,
but it shall remain nothing more than a belief unless proven to be a fact reguardless of how tightly it is embraced or how many people embrace it.
You dont have to prove anything to me unless you want to oppose my veiw in a discussion, which is what you are claiming to do, yet it appears to me that you dont even understand what veiw I am even putting forward.
This is a logical disscussion regarding what is the difference between
Fact, Fiction, Belief, Opinion and Proof, and the Harm involved in the confusion of these things.
Your beliefs will only be disected and analised if you offer them up for discussion, thats part of interacting as intelligent human beings.
If you are uncomfortable with this then dont offer them up for disscussion, I am sorry if I have misrepresented your beliefs, that would be quite unintentional, possibly the result of you claiming that you have an opposing veiw to what you think are my veiws.
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
Any chance of agreeing to disagree??
Or better still - respecting each other's right to their view/opinion/belief/faith - whatever!!
Herbie - didn't you want to keep any kind of religious discussion off the forum??
Please give it a rest.....:kiss
I said before this thread had a hint of pythonism.. It has now grown into a full blown Monty.. If Chapman, Cleese, Idle, Palin et al were to read this thread, you blokes would get jobs as skit writers..
Thats why I've kept coming back.. It's brilliant..
M: Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.
R: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?
M: No, I haven't, this is my first time.
R: I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?
M: Well, what is the cost?
R: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.
M: Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes.
R: Fine. Well, I'll see who's free at the moment.
Pause
R: Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.
Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.
M: Thank you.
(Walks down the hall. Opens door.)
Q: WHAT DO YOU WANT?
M: Well, I was told outside that...
Q: Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!
M: What?
Q: Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!
M: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!
Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.
M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.
Q: Not at all.
M: Thank You.
(Under his breath) Stupid git!!
(Walk down the corridor)
M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A: I did!
M: You didn't!
A: I'm telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That's it. Good morning.
M: I was just getting interested.
A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!
A: I'm afraid it was.
M: It wasn't.
Pause
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
M: What?!
A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!
A: (Hums)
M: Look, this is ridiculous.
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Oh, all right.
(pays money)
A: Thank you.
short pause
M: Well?
A: Well what?
M: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.
A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.
M: I just paid!
A: No you didn't.
M: I DID!
A: No you didn't.
M: Look, I don't want to argue about that.
A: Well, you didn't pay.
M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!
A: No you haven't.
M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
M: Oh I've had enough of this.
A: No you haven't.
M: Oh Shut up.
(Walks down the stairs. Opens door.)
M: I want to complain.
C: You want to complain! Look at these shoes. I've only had them three weeks and the heels are worn right through.
M: No, I want to complain about...
C: If you complain nothing happens, you might as well not bother.
M: Oh!
C: Oh my back hurts, it's not a very fine day and I'm sick and tired of this office.
(Slams door. walks down corridor, opens next door.)
M: Hello, I want to... Ooooh!
H: No, no, no. Hold your head like this, then go Waaah. Try it again.
M: uuuwwhh!!
H: Better, Better, but Waah, Waah! Put your hand there.
M: No.
H: Now..
M: Waaaaah!!!
H: Good, Good! That's it.
M: Stop hitting me!!
H: What?
M: Stop hitting me!!
H: Stop hitting you?
M: Yes!
H: Why did you come in here then?
M: I wanted to complain.
H: Oh no, that's next door. It's being-hit-on-the-head lessons in here.
M: What a stupid concept.
haha..... damn, this post still on.....
hehehe...
They must have paid for the course of ten arguments!
I'm not promoting any religion,😎
I am trying to promote intelligent disscussions/debate etc.
People getting wound up can't be reading the posts properly,
None of it should be cause for aggravation.:kiss
People who are getting mad, just chill and re read the posts.
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
Believe me, I'm not getting mad - or annoyed, and I'm definitely not offended by the topic....Just kinda bored with it now.....
I just don't see where this is going or how it is going to end as you are not arguing over a fact - you are arguing over a belief/belief system (I may stand corrected coz I can't be bothered going into the detail of this entire thread - but that's the gist of it).
And I know I'll get the standard "don't read it/ignore it" - but c'mon.
What does everyone else think about this thread?? Silly andoutta hand - or intelligent adult debate ??
StenGuns wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
I just paid!
CB Hotdog wrote:Believe me, I'm not getting mad - or annoyed, and I'm definitely not offended by the topic....Just kinda bored with it now.....
But why would you believe me just coz I ask you to - you should not believe this blindly, and I should present proof to back up my statement. Hmmm how to prove feeling? Does this mean they don't exist? Or does it just mean I should question them to be sure?? If I believe them without question - am I an idiot? Am I the idiot in my group?
God (no pun intended) what am i saying?? I have no idea who's theory/argument I may have just supported by that little spiel - but isn't it about as silly as that? (Or have I just raised a really highly intelligent philasophical question worthy of an adult debate)..ARRRGGH
I'm going for a 30 day free trial... the wonders of technology ...(you can download it at freeargument.com/10 sessions/good argument/or just plain boring argument)
No you didn't
\
warb wrote:StenGuns wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
I just paid!
you already stated its a feeling, you don't claim it to be a fact😀
if you did, we could start discussing that.
How will half the other threads finish? we dont know, I believe its a mystery!:blush
But I cant be bothered to call it a fact as it would take even more energy to prove that.
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
Uh Oh:duh
Did not:thumb
Go forth thou worthy arguer.. Having paid thy tithe for 30 minutes of argument you may abandon thy reason and blindly argue with all you see.. Do not tarry by the wayside of politeness or tolerance.. nor feel sadness for those weary of threadness.. Smite those down who dare to accuse you of faith or non faith.. For thou art worthy.. aaaaaraarrggh
Oh bollocks
CB Hotdog wrote:I'm going for a 30 day free trial... the wonders of technology ...(you can download it at freeargument.com/10 sessions/good argument/or just plain boring argument)
[Edited on 25/3/2005 by StenGuns]
Did so
:vader
OK I did - so????**she says with a tremulous smile**
(PS - learnt that word just today in a crossword - now I'm using it in a sentence - what a show off))
PPS - think I should not purchase after the 30 day trial is up - me thinks me can't argue very well - but my boyfriend would certainly disagree - he he he
Ohh.. you're a female.. sorry.. not allowed to argue with females.. They can become far too tremulous
[Edited on 25/3/2005 by StenGuns]
This is the first time I've visited this post...thought it would be appropriate considering that this time of year religon is the main topic...plus after my 7 year old daughters easter bonnet parade she asked me if I believed in god.
Lucky she has a small attention span.
BTW i'm lost because I don't know what the original post was...i'm guessing it was deleted.
But you're just contradicting me...
"Tell him 'We've already got one'"
Do you have to pay extra to argue with females??
No.. you have to be bloody stupid!!!
CB Hotdog wrote:Do you have to pay extra to argue with females??
CB Hotdog.. I would just like to say that I am not responsible for that last remark.. I believe that an Alien entered my being, just as I was about to reply and made me type that ridiculous rubbish.. Of course you can argue with females.. Granted, it may cost a little extra in the long run.. But the making up is always worth it.. Now.. stopping bloody pissing around and start arguing!
lol
Maybe I'm not a female - maybe I'm gay - did you ever stop to question what you are led to believe??
(Now I'm getting the hang of it - might just take the 30 day trial offer up after all).
Prove it buddy!!
That hasn't stopped anyone else.. Just start bloody arguing!
kafer69 wrote:BTW i'm lost because I don't know what the original post was...i'm guessing it was deleted.
