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Big brakes for Beetle NOW WITH EVEN MORE PICS!!

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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#327849
Don't take this the worng way... 😉 but it's much better to use all compatiible factory original equipment components - to stay away from the problems of 'patching' with junk parts!

[Edited on 31/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT

Herbie 53 Bugs are not nearly enough

764 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#327868
yes I agree, do it once and do it right, thats my bodgee alter ego coming out,:P
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#327968
lol... I been there, done that!:thumb
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tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#328053
The calipers a m8 of mine is using for his own disc brake kit for F-Vees are a generic single sided caliper found on dozens of small taiwanese/korean and hyundai comes to mind.
They are cheap and readily available new and may be another angle to enable you to employ one peice hub/disks.

Just another thought.

L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#328148
Flintstones wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:The calliper I have chosen is the common, low-cost and very effective single-piston sliding finned aluminium PBR Corvette/Holden calliper, commonly known as the 'VL Turbo' calliper used on VL-VS Holden/HSV V8s.

The disc is a 290/24mm vented unit made by DBA for an XR8 Falcon.
VWCOOL, the standard commodore rotor thickness for the VL turbo caliper is 22mm.....

any reason for the thicker rotor?
Cheers
After doing some bedding-in of the new rotors with old half-worn out pads, I have just fitted new Bendix Ultimate brake pads and although it's a 24mm disc in a calliper designed for one that is 23mm thick, they fitted okay!
Pay your debts, CxxT

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#328962
Did some testing of the big brake conversion today: I have just returned from a reasonable drive along some hilly twisty terrain to 'bed-in' the new pads against the vented and slotted discs. As explained earlier in this thread, I am testing my big brakes with the T3 rear drums that I have had on the car for years before I install the rear disc package we have been working on, for testing with the vented fronts.

For max traction during testing, I have fitted a set of 'chewing gum' semi-comp Falken tyres. My Beetle is fitted with a standard 1600cc 'mule' engine at the moment so it takes a fair while to get to 100km/h, but four back-to-back runs from 100-0 didn't result in any fade or even a whiff of distress from the front brakes.

When I get my (much quicker) 1916 engine back in, I intend to test with 10 back-to-back full-throttle 100km/h-0 cycles which as far as I know, is an industry standard fade test for OE manufacturers and most state rego authorities.

At this stage, as far as I can tell (by myself) the fronts are tending to lock before the rears but I will fit another set of tyres to 'destruct' for 'lock-up point' testing at a later time.

But with nose-dragging braking performance, it's so far, so good!:thumb:thumb:thumb
Pay your debts, CxxT

57kombi Hannover Elder

2,544 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#328981
Not trying to rain on your parade, But, disc kits are already available from places like CSP . these are German engineered , use General Motors replaceable parts and with these kits you do not have to modify the spindles and you can also keep your original wheels, even wide 5 bolt .
Kits cost about $1200,

Like I said its great that you are doing these things but why, when you have to do so much work and also go to the expense of fitting Ford wheels??

Cheers
Dave

bugboymatt Custom Title Time!

1,405 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#328984
57kombi wrote:Not trying to rain on your parade, But, disc kits are already available from places like CSP . these are German engineered , use General Motors replaceable parts and with these kits you do not have to modify the spindles and you can also keep your original wheels, even wide 5 bolt .
Kits cost about $1200,

Like I said its great that you are doing these things but why, when you have to do so much work and also go to the expense of fitting Ford wheels??



Cheers
Dave



There tested to german specs too which i do believe are the most stringent there going !!!! So would have to be good to reach TUV approval in Germany.



[Edited on 2-4-2005 by bugboymatt]
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.

57kombi Hannover Elder

2,544 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#328991
That is correct, they are the best you can get for beetles and kombis,
All I am thinking is the price of these ones would have to be less than $500 to make it worth while, as you have to have the spindles modified and also change the wheels, which isnt going to be cheap if you want a nice set.

Like I said I just cant see the point if they are not going to be very cheap.

Cheers
Dave

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#329027
lol... I know what's out there! And I'm happy to compare mine with thiers... but I don't think there is much of a comparison unless you're looking at a vented high-performance setup like.. well, like what? Is the CSP kit a high-performance vented kit? Er... no!

Most commercially-available kits seem to give roughly equivalent performance to standard Beetle front discs. Or with dodgy calliper/MC matching, worse performance. They certainly don't seem to have the specs or ability that I have designed into my little vented package.

Even with good pads and specially-manufactured slotted rotors, my Beetle's brakes (with T3 rear drums) used to fade when punished on-road and track. That's why I've gone one better and engineered big 290x24mm vented front brakes from a 1800kg V8 muscle car into my 800kg Beetle.

Originally, I did this conversion for myself and my own car, but was encouraged to 'go public' and think about supplying others by other VW enthusiasts who saw what I was doing.

Expense? The Ford wheels cost me $80. Uh, that's less than what most people want for a set of 15x6-inch VW rims... And as for $500.. you are dreaming. That doesn't even buy me the precision machining for one side of this upgrade, let alone bearings, seals, brackets, callipers, studs, nuts, rotors and pads! I am chasing an extreme level of performance from these brakes, not a low price.

These brakes are not for $3000 P-plater's cars. You want stock discs - buy stock discs. As I discovered years ago, stock discs are actually quite good (up to a point) with decent pads! You want cheap? Go right ahead!

But if you want almost one-inch thick, virtually fade-free ventilated front disc brakes with a big, sticky pad that will mate up with almost-as-serious rear discs and survive under a Scooby WRX transplant, stroker, turbo, healthy 1916, etc, be street legal in all states and be easy to maintain, I might be able to help 😉



[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]

[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT

57kombi Hannover Elder

2,544 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#329076
lol.


As a matter of fact they can be purchased VENTED. Just check any UltraVW mag.

They are CNC machined cast alloy hubs with rotors and wheel bearings installed, new 48mm GM calipers brake hoses and fitting instructions. and are TUV approved which is far superior to any approval needed in Australia.They keep the wide 5 so you can keep your standard wheels or the set of BRW's/Empis that you already have.

I mentioned the cost of the wheels.
Do you really think that anyone going to this expense is going to stick crappy Ford steel wheels to there vehicle after spending this amount of money, I doubt it, they will have to purchase some mags, that is what I was on about re the price.
Also on these disc brakes, no modification of the spindle is required.
If they dont suit your needs fair enough, I was only mentioning the fact that Vented discs are availabe in wide 5.

So what would you be selling yours for then.

Suprise me!!

Cheers
Dave

malcolm Insano Dub Head

812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·

#329123
it doesn,t matter if brake kits are tuv approved they need to be adr complient in australia and if you can use brakes that are used on australian approved cars it makes engineering easier and parts cheaper a very good rear caliper to use is a 1980/1984 front subi caliper great piston size cheap can use a kombi disk and has the cable handbrake actuator due to subi having the handbrake on the front.

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#329174
57Kombi, I mentioned earlier in this thread that my choice of Falcon wheels means you can buy ANY AU factory Ford or aftermarket wheel you like with $20 steelies for 'budget' and hand-built Simmons etc at the four-figure end of the scale.

In other words, spending big money on wheels in NOT necessary to use these brakes. So, if like me, you don't mind sticking $20,000 worth of engine and running gear under a $500 shell, ex-taxi steelies are 'the go'!

I also mentioned earlier, I have made sure this upgrade will fit inside 5x130 Porsche wheels that are a common fitment for 'show' and 'go' Beetles. They also fit inside Commodore rims (although Commodore rims are not as 'happy' under a ball-joint Beetle due to offset) which gives, in my opinion, an enormous range of wheels to choose from.

Not many people attempt to make serious street/comp cars or buggies out of pre-68 link-pin cars with the classic 'wide five' wheels. Lack of wheel supply/choice, lack of centre spigot (therefore difficulty balancing etc etc) lack of strength and adjustment in front end are just some of the reasons why.

[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]

[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#329176
malcolm wrote:it doesn,t matter if brake kits are tuv approved they need to be adr complient in australia and if you can use brakes that are used on australian approved cars it makes engineering easier and parts cheaper a very good rear caliper to use is a 1980/1984 front subi caliper great piston size cheap can use a kombi disk and has the cable handbrake actuator due to subi having the handbrake on the front.
This is a front vented upgrade, not rear! See pic below - sorry it's sideways but I'm sure you get the idea!

For reasons of cost and ease of fitment, pre-EF Falcon is the best rear disc upgrade for VWs, I reckon

And Malcolm, you are right about the ADRs... they are the only ones that matter in Australia!



[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]

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57kombi Hannover Elder

2,544 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#329204
Yes but if they can pass the German TUV, they will piss it in over any ADR.
Also I used the wide 5 as most on here have early vehicles but the CSP brakes are alos available in the later 4 bolt pattern.
For about the same price of $1200.

Come on how much are you going to sell yours for???
I only ask as before you edited I am sure a figure of $1500 was posted????


Cheers
Dave

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#329447
I have spent roughly $3000 so far in materials and contracted machining to get the prototype brakes onto my car to the stage where they able to be tested. When people started asking me, I figured around $1500 for the kit.... But with initial finger-count costings, it looks like it will be more than that

None of the engineers I know/use recognise TVU for aftermarket. They rely on inspection of components. And as for wide- fives... you should get out more. The 60s are over


[Edited on 3/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
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ducky Believer in Buggyism

1,238 posts · joined Aug 2003 ·

#329472
This is fun better than reality tv. I like ingenuity.
Baby Loves to Mumbo

bugboymatt Custom Title Time!

1,405 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#329475
Tarox do some nice 6 piston calipers for veedubs 😉
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.

bugboymatt Custom Title Time!

1,405 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#329480
Dave, yeah 60's are over time to get rid of that old bus ya have there and get a modern one !!! Maybe a toyota Tarago or something !!!
Don't know what they'll give ya for trade in tho !!!!
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#329481
six piston... yeehah! :thumbBut I'm finding the single-piston sliding PBRs seem to work okay too!
Pay your debts, CxxT

bugboymatt Custom Title Time!

1,405 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#329483
Just out of interest. What does it cost to get and fit good old porsche brakes here in oz! I think theres a couple of peeps using them !!
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.

malcolm Insano Dub Head

812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·

#329504
complete steel porsche with single piston caliper $800 per arm alloy complete arms with brakes $1500 per arm if you want to use the porsche stud pattern its the best way to go and easier to engineer but I found a good supplier at good prices I got a complete 944 rear suspension for $700 but I sold the brake assem of the arms for $300 and will be using honde NSX rear brakes with the 5x 114.3 stud pattern the guy I got the porsche brakes from is a Honda wreckers in westall road springvale vic.

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#329668
I'd rather use something off a local performance car than the CSP stuff. I tried to tell people this before.
With local stuff I can go to repco and buy whatever pads I want from bargain stockers to heavy duty race pads, I can also pick up a whole new caliper for not much money. Or I can go to the wreckers and buy 3 pairs of caliper for a few hundred dollars.
I'm sure this is not the case for the CSP stuff. I know it's well made. But the ADRs are the most important things for local engineers. They couldn't care less about german regs. If they know what local car it's off they are much happier, otherwise they have to do wall sorts of weird brake tests to varify it. They'd rather avoid that and so would I.
Besides, who would you rather support, and aussie business or a german business?
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#329719
pete wood wrote:I'd rather use something off a local performance car than the CSP stuff. I tried to tell people this before.
With local stuff I can go to repco and buy whatever pads I want from bargain stockers to heavy duty race pads, I can also pick up a whole new caliper for not much money. Or I can go to the wreckers and buy 3 pairs of caliper for a few hundred dollars.

I'm sure this is not the case for the CSP stuff. I know it's well made. But the ADRs are the most important things for local engineers. They couldn't care less about german regs. If they know what local car it's off they are much happier, otherwise they have to do wall sorts of weird brake tests to varify it. They'd rather avoid that and so would I.
Besides, who would you rather support, and aussie business or a german business?
... that's exactly the philosophy that I have, too, and the reason why I have used standard unmodified Holden, Ford and VW components as far as possible.

As I have mentioned before in this thread, using components designed and validated by their manufacturers (PBR, BTR/Dana, DBA, Holden and Ford) in Australia for 2000kg Australian V8 sedans means that local Recognised Engineering Signatories have no reason to be uncomfortable approving these brakes on a modified vehicle. Imported callipers not used on Australian market (ADR complied) vehicles (including aftermarket brands) do not offer the same confidence.

Brembo, Wilwood, AP is all sexy and very capable product when used in thier intended applications. However, individual components can be expensive and in many cases can never be legally installed on a street car due to lack of durability testing and track-only design (such as no rubber piston seals for dust exclusion). Yeah, they look good and you can brag to your mates... but I bought Bendix Ultimate brake pads at the local milk bar 😉 the other day and I think the calliper piston seals cost $8 per side. Yep... eight. Two of these :beer:

The callipers and calliper cradles are UNMODIFIED in my upgrade - other kits (for all sorts of cars, not just VWs) I have seen over the years use butchered OE cradles which are a durability and safety concern.

My upgrade's flexible brake lines are also unmodified for the same reason - safety, durability and legality.

As I outlined earlier, I have also researched appropriate wheels for this upgrade (the calliper is too big to fit inside a VW rim centre). As my pics show, I can confidently say that 15x6-inch AU Falcon wheels do the job under standard guards. Yes, there is a minor loss in turning circle... exactly the same as many of us experience with 15x6-inch VW rims under standard guards. This upgrade has also been designed for Porsche alloys - everything fits.

I would like to have been able to install this upgrade as a 'bolt-on' without diassembling the front end (ie removing the stub axle adding to the time required to install and upsetting the front end alignment etc) but I found it impossible to fit my big calliper, its cradle and a rotor of this size (290x24mm) to a standard VW stub without increasing vehicle track dimension. The track increases that some other brake kits force you to live with can upset suspension and steering geometry and force wheels to rub on mudguards.

There is no increase in track with my brake upgrade.

The calliper brackets and hubs I had made are one-piece items (no dodgy welding) that are laser-cut and machined from steel with appropriate (huge!) cross-sectional area and corner radii etc etc. These brackets far exceed the original VW's dimension for the calliper mounting 'ears' (bolt-holes). In fact, they are bigger than the brackets that HSV and FPR use on the 'Performance' brake packages for 300kW/1800kg cars...

The forged VW stub axle is machined (not gas-axed which can upset metallurgy etc) to accept the new bracket once again using appropriate machining practice.

But of course, the real reason I am doing this to my own car is because there is a very high 'operational ceiling' with these components.

In other words, ventilated V8 brakes on a Beetle ROCK!

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT

Turbo54 Veteran Volks Folk

2,220 posts · joined Jul 2004 ·

#329740
VW Cool, keep me updated with what your doing,
Cheers, T54
C'mon kids gather round,
there's a new sensation hitting town,
It's moving straight, low to the ground,
it'll pick you up when your feeling down.

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#329745
yep I will be keeping this thread updated
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Gracey Wolfsburg Wizard

511 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#329831
VW Cool, all I can say is Excellent Reading. Oversized brakes always rock, and these puppy's look huge.:thumb

1303 Officially Full-On Dubber

250 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#330063
Good to see some decent aussie engineering . I remember hearing that a common VL brake upgrade was to go for the early 4 piston Skyline caliper ... Apparently this was a bolt on swap , that would provide some serious stopping on a beetle.

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by 1303]

gayanne Officially Full-On Dubber

307 posts · joined May 2004 ·

#330170
There are a lot of valid points,bigger the brakes bigger the stopping power.VWcool your brakes are fine but are only cool for road use only.Using AP,Brembo etc are the best but are used mainly for racing just and over kill for road use but look fat under any car.I use APS and WILWOOD for racing and i would never use anything less for racing to risk less stopping power.JVLRacing