Big brakes for Beetle NOW WITH EVEN MORE PICS!!

VWCOOL · 2005-03-29T02:27:46+00:00

For the last year or so, I have been developing a big brake package for the front end of BJ Beetles that I hope to manufacture and sell to other VW enthusiasts. Yesterday, I fitted my prototype package to the front end of my hottie Oval for road testing so I thought I'd take a few pics... This upgrade consists of modified spindles and a hub and calliper bracket machined from billet. The calliper I have chosen is the common, low-cost and very effective single-piston sliding finned aluminium PBR Corvette/Holden calliper, commonly known as the 'VL Turbo' calliper used on VL-VS Holden/HSV V8s. The disc is a 290/24mm vented unit made by DBA for an XR8 Falcon. Using as many OE parts as possible means there are no problems with low-cost spares supply in the future. Regular and high-performance brake pads, rebuild kits and rotors will be available almost forever. The hub is machined with the correct 'spigot' size to positively locate the centre of the wheel, a common (and technically illegal) omission with aftermarket brakes and a common reason for refusal at engineering/rego time. Unlike some aftermarket packages, there is no increase in track and the bearings and seals are standard VW. With more than double the pad area and a huge increase in heat-absorbing and heat-shedding ability, the braking effectiveness and fade resistance for super-quick street Beetles and Buggies (eg: WRX power, 1916cc, strokers, turbos etc etc) goes without saying. I have designed the package to fit inside 15-inch or larger Porsche or Ford wheels. Due to the calliper's size (double that of std ATE/Beetle), they will NOT fit inside widened VW wheels. My prototype runs a Ford stud pattern and Falcon AU 15x6-inch rims, which are a perfect fit under my standard guards. I chose these rims (and the Falcon PCD) for reasons of cost and popularity: Falcon wheels are piled up in wrecking yards, are cheap, and there is a huge range of factory and aftermarket wheels, too. EF-EL 'cop chaser' 15x6-inch rims (with less backspace) are an alternative for people who wish to 'fill out' widened guards, as are the later-model AUII-BA 16x7-inch steel rims. Of course, the Porsche stud pattern will also be available to those who wish to use or retain Porsche wheels. Note, too, that the conversion uses wheel studs - much more user-friendly than VW's original bolts! After I am happy with the front upgrade performance (currently testing with T3 rear drums) and master cylinder choice, this front brake upgrade will be tested with a disc rear for a super-effective street legal (all-new parts - no restudding) high-performance Beetle brake upgrade. [Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL] [Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL] [Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 5 Apr 2005, 10:22 am

#330366

gayanne wrote:There are a lot of valid points,bigger the brakes bigger the stopping power.VWcool your brakes are fine but are only cool for road use only.Using AP,Brembo etc are the best but are used mainly for racing just and over kill for road use but look fat under any car.I use APS and WILWOOD for racing and i would never use anything less for racing to risk less stopping power.JVLRacing

Generally, the bigger the brakes, the better the fade resistance. More metal means the brakes can absorb more heat before the pads get too hot and go 'off' or fade. Larger brakes (such this upgrade I have designed for my Beetle) are ventilated so have more than double the surface area for quicker heat dissipation.

Slotting (not essential, but I have chosen slots for my prototypes) helps deglaze pads (at the expense of some operational life) and helps allow gas emitted by hot pads to escape from between the pad and the rotor surface, helping redue the 'butter in a frypan' effect of a hot pad uselessly sliding over the rotor's surface on a layer of boiling gas.

On top of all that, a larger pad provides more initial 'bite', takes longer to get hot AND is able to dissipate heat quicker.

Mount these bigger pads in a finned alloy calliper like the PBR single-piston slider I have chosen (unlike the Beetle's steel ATE units) over vented discs and put them under a car of half the mass capability of the brakes and I would say it wil be very, very, very difficult to make these brakes 'go away'...

Gayanne, despite your concerns I don't see why these vented road-based brakes wouldn't be sensational for 'road registered'-class competition Beetles (ie not sports sedans with fabricated suspension).

Many aftermarket racing callipers (such as WILWOOD and AP that you have chosen) are delivered from their manufacturers with the prominent warnings "NOT FOR HIGHWAY USE DESIGNED FOR RACING USE ONLY", as they are not 'validated' for legal road use eg: they don't have piston dust seals etc etc.

From my experience with aftermarket brakes on drag and circuit Commodores etc etc it is also generally recommended they be diassembled and inspected after every race meeting. That is not something that I, or many other people, wish to do for a fast road car!!

[Edited on 5/4/2005 by VWCOOL]

[Edited on 5/4/2005 by VWCOOL]

Pay your debts, CxxT

Gracey Wolfsburg Wizard

511 posts · joined Feb 2003 · 5 Apr 2005, 12:41 pm

#330420

Just curious whats the weight difference between standard and your kit vwcool?

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 5 Apr 2005, 2:24 pm

#330447

Gracey wrote:Just curious whats the weight difference between standard and your kit vwcool?

Yes, I was curious, too, so I chucked 'em on Mum's dodgy old bathroom scales before I fitted them. The extra mass of the vented rotor, larger pads and bigger calliper is roughly 3kg per side: 12 vs 15kg balljoint-to-balljoint

Pay your debts, CxxT

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 5 Apr 2005, 3:26 pm

#330481

57kombi wrote:Yes but if they can pass the German TUV, they will piss it in over any ADR.
Also I used the wide 5 as most on here have early vehicles but the CSP brakes are alos available in the later 4 bolt pattern.
For about the same price of $1200.

Come on how much are you going to sell yours for???
I only ask as before you edited I am sure a figure of $1500 was posted????

Cheers
Dave

Dave, I think you better do some more HOMEWORK.

This would be my suggestion for your study itinerary.

#1 Currency Conversion e.g. $1227 Euro to AUS$ or an easier one $696 Euro to Aussie$

#2 Product comparison exercise. (i) looking at pad size (ii) Replacement disc cost (iii) Parts availability (iv)Alloy caliper option.

#3 Customising options available on product order. e.g. Stud pattern options, slotted/cross drilled variants, pad material selection......

#4 Customs Duties,GST and Deliver costs of goods of more than $1000Aus entering into the country, and approx 30kg in weight.

Then maybe share your answers?

Cheers
Craig T

57kombi Hannover Elder

2,544 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 5 Apr 2005, 3:31 pm

#330485

Sorry I was a hundred dollars out.
At todays rate I can get them fro Roy at Classic.
For $1362.

Cheers
Dave

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 5 Apr 2005, 3:32 pm

#330486

gayanne wrote:VWcool your brakes are fine but are only cool for road use only.

WTF..........

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 5 Apr 2005, 3:34 pm

#330491

57kombi wrote:Sorry I was a hundred dollars out.
At todays rate I can get them fro Roy at Classic.
For $1362.

Cheers
Dave

And the pad size?
Replacement Disc cost?
Stud pattern availability?.............

I know the kit you are talking about........works well..........but NO comparison with this MONSTER brake kit.

[Edited on 5/4/2005 by Craig Torrens]

jakjones Officially Full-On Dubber

217 posts · joined Mar 2004 · 5 Apr 2005, 9:00 pm

#330693

57kombi wrote:Sorry I was a hundred dollars out.
At todays rate I can get them fro Roy at Classic.
For $1362.

Cheers
Dave

I don't like this brake set up , but at least its Australian components etc.

:party
:kiss
:jesus

This stuff is not relevant to the discussion, I hate editing but it had to be done - Moderator.

[Edited on 6-4-2005 by Dasdubber]

frenzix Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,742 posts · joined Dec 2003 · 5 Apr 2005, 9:03 pm

#330698

:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh:duh

www.nkcrew.com.au

Dasdubber DAS Resto Haus

5,746 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 5 Apr 2005, 9:20 pm

#330709

There is lots and lots of very valuable info in this post, but I suggest maybe take a look at what you are typing before hitting the post reply button - and ask is this still on topic? Is it useful for this discussion?

I am not trigger happy with the edit or delete button so wanted to give a little heads up first. :vader

That aside, I'll always commend someone for doing something different and sharing the idea/info for "useful" debate. It would be a shame to turn this into a shit fight.

[Edited on 5-4-2005 by Dasdubber]

www.dasrestoparts.com.au

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 5 Apr 2005, 10:44 pm

#330820

Gee, it's been a busy day!
Yes, this thread is still 'on-topic'... kinda! I'm not the first person in the world to install vented discs to the front of a Beetle and some people are questioning why I am 'reinventing the wheel' by doing it. Yes, there are other commercially available disc kits but like a lot of products, oils ain't oils!

I reckon my upgraded brakes are bigger (thicker discs and larger calliper and pads) and better (wheel choice, captive studs, PCD choice, spare parts, performance!) than the kits that are available, one of which appears to retain the same size brake pad as standard. That's why I put the effort into coming up with better brakes with a larger pad area and with V8-specification vented discs.

Questions, discussion and opinion about all this stuff is always good... as long as it is sensible and/or can be backed up with facts!

I'm off interstate for a week so won't be doing any more hard driving until I get back. I'll let you all know how it goes.... err, stops. 😉Then I'll install the rear discs for even more fun! :thumb:thumb

[Edited on 5/4/2005 by VWCOOL]

Pay your debts, CxxT

Peter Leonard Moderator Volatile

1,456 posts · joined Apr 2003 · 5 Apr 2005, 11:37 pm

#330854

With what I'm currently working on, brakes are starting to become an issue, so I'm also interested in the end result. I've looked at quite a few different brake packages for VWs, and have come out of it with my head swimming with the complexities involved in selecting the right setup. Something about reading up on the variables involved with stopping lends respect to the investigation and construction of something like this.
Now. Time to start selling my body to science.

let sleeping dubs lie

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 6 Apr 2005, 7:54 am

#330915

Yes, as with any 'go where no man has gone before' 😉project, there are lots of variables... tyre pressures can influence how brakes work along with calliper piston size (I have attempted to match/balance performance front and rear as far as possible within OE specs for callipers), master cylinder (I found it necessary to fit a larger one to 'feed' the extra calliper capacity), brake pedal leverage ratio (I'm not playing with that!), friction material (I will be using the same high performance compound front and rear), wheel size (same 15x6-inch front and rear Falcon rims for now with sticky Falkens), weight distribution (can't do much about that unlress I put the engine in the front!:duh) yadda yadda yadda... I am busy dealing with all this stuff to get brakes on my Beetle that work to world-class standards

[Edited on 5/4/2005 by VWCOOL]

Pay your debts, CxxT

Gracey Wolfsburg Wizard

511 posts · joined Feb 2003 · 6 Apr 2005, 12:59 pm

#331093

Peter Leonard wrote:Now. Time to start selling my body to science.

I don't think science is that hard up dude:P:P

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 6 Apr 2005, 1:08 pm

#331100

Gracey wrote:
Peter Leonard wrote:Now. Time to start selling my body to science.

I don't think science is that hard up dude:P:P

I thought all the (half) decent parts had already gone to science

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

57kombi Hannover Elder

2,544 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 6 Apr 2005, 2:11 pm

#331147

Jackjones.
Well that was a worthwile post wasnt it??

Cheers
Dave

winerot Custom Title Time!

1,340 posts · joined Aug 2004 · 6 Apr 2005, 2:39 pm

#331158

you cant beat home made

http://mirrorimageweddings.com.au/

winerot Custom Title Time!

1,340 posts · joined Aug 2004 · 6 Apr 2005, 2:40 pm

#331159

:P

http://mirrorimageweddings.com.au/

57kombi Hannover Elder

2,544 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 6 Apr 2005, 2:44 pm

#331161

Now that is funny.

57kombi Hannover Elder

2,544 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 6 Apr 2005, 4:48 pm

#331230

Jackjones.

Why are you so upset regarding me posting pictures of my bus?
Are you jealous?

Where is your vehicle and did you do it all yourself?
You must be driving a shitter as we have never seen any pics of it.
If you work hard and save up your pocket money, you to might have a vehicle as good as mine one day when your mum and dad let you go for your driving lessons.
I presume you are in your early teens as that is how you come across.

Cheers
Dave

barls Administrator Causer of Chaos and Mayhem

9,476 posts · joined Jun 2004 · 6 Apr 2005, 4:56 pm

#331232

settle dave hes not worth it cause if he was he would have posted a pic of his car by now

“We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free.” Bill Hicks
the chaos project - click me

Kai.A. Fahrvergnugen

915 posts · joined Sep 2003 · 6 Apr 2005, 5:20 pm

#331244

yeh dave, don't worry about it.
i've never seen a constructive comment by jj. in fact most of the posts are nothing but sh*t stirring!

back on topic tho'

vwcool, i like the look of what you've done, i really like the idea of using local easy to source parts.

good on ya for having a go!

apart from the petty schoolgirl bickering this thread has been a very enjoyable read!!

kai

jakjones Officially Full-On Dubber

217 posts · joined Mar 2004 · 6 Apr 2005, 7:13 pm

#331321

57kombi wrote:Jackjones.
Well that was a worthwile post wasnt it??

Cheers
Dave

Yep thanks Dave

I am not upset nor Jealous of your Bus

I don't want pics of any of my cars on here.
If you must know I don't like splittys but each to his own.
My Kombi is a T3 and will always do most things better than a splitty no matter how much u spend on it , but if looks are everthing to u then fine.
I have done several resto jobs, wouldn't like to count them.
I also do my own engine work.

Back on topic what size pistons on those calipers ?

gayanne Officially Full-On Dubber

307 posts · joined May 2004 · 6 Apr 2005, 9:07 pm

#331399

VWcool your points are valid but racers are not going to use some none proven Brakes that are not tested for racing use they will always use a proven brand name that have worked for years,matching your Brakes agaisnt big name brands is a big ask and a big statement.JVLRacing

gayanne Officially Full-On Dubber

307 posts · joined May 2004 · 6 Apr 2005, 9:10 pm

#331402

Craig Torrens wrote:
gayanne wrote:VWcool your brakes are fine but are only cool for road use only.
WTF.......... YDH.........you have no idea do you Craig.

Dasdubber DAS Resto Haus

5,746 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 6 Apr 2005, 9:17 pm

#331414

jakjones wrote:Back on topic what size pistons on those calipers ?

Yes please, keep it on topic, I hate flexing the moderator muscle but if people keep getting caught up in interpersonal bickering that has no constructive outcome on the original thread, it will be edited. I am sorry, but I'd rather edit than delete/suspend an entire post that has lots of useful info/discussion.

www.dasrestoparts.com.au

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 7 Apr 2005, 9:56 am

#331697

gayanne wrote:VWcool your points are valid but racers are not going to use some none proven Brakes that are not tested for racing use they will always use a proven brand name that have worked for years,matching your Brakes agaisnt big name brands is a big ask and a big statement.JVLRacing

So JVL.........

front discs and calipers used on a 1800kg vehicle, matched with rear disc and calipers also from an 1800kg vehicle, would not be a benefit on an 800/900kg car???:duh..........all being factory proven components.

This system WILL BE proven before it will be available for interested parties to purchase.

P.S There's plenty of VW racers (CT, JAK,Rudy,Greg,Ben,Myself, etc etc......) using far smaller brakes now...................As a racer I will be first in line to fit this package.

Turbo54 Veteran Volks Folk

2,220 posts · joined Jul 2004 · 7 Apr 2005, 11:04 am

#331736

Just interested and I know it's a bit below this package but I haven't heard anyone mention the Shermann conversions you can get. Are these similar setups with using local stuff and is the Shermann conversion 4 wheel disk setup adequate? Does anyone run these? The fact is we are all running light weight cars that really dont need huge stopping power unless we would be doing track work. When was the last time you experienced brake fade? Seriously.
T54

C'mon kids gather round,
there's a new sensation hitting town,
It's moving straight, low to the ground,
it'll pick you up when your feeling down.

gayanne Officially Full-On Dubber

307 posts · joined May 2004 · 7 Apr 2005, 1:33 pm

#331820

Craig not once have ive said these brakes are no good, at this time being ther not a proven brake system until they are tested and have a star approval.And yes these brakes would be a benefit to a car under 1300kgs and yes if the affordability is there for budget racing you would buy vwcools brake system but if i had a choice ill still buy a proven brake system which has been around for years that are lighter,raceproven and approved buy many racers. p.s Craig ive built proven racecars and raced as well and crewed learning race craft over many years and what i have learned you dont take short cuts to risk anything.JVLRacing

[Edited on 7/4/2005 by gayanne]

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 7 Apr 2005, 3:24 pm

#331862

Show me a proven race system that I can buy "off the shelf" for my street registered VW..................where it needs no modification from "me" (the end user) and is realistically priced, with the same potential stopping power.....................is there one?

What would you recommend JVL as an alternative (equal braking ability) to the system VWCOOL has developed?

And what would this system consist of........and all importantly what will it cost?