Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
Looking forward to :puke gay anne's response to that VWCOOL !😉
Big brakes for Beetle NOW WITH EVEN MORE PICS!!
jakjones Officially Full-On Dubber
217 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·
isn't 2 x 40mm pistons in the OE ATE caliper better than 1x 50mm in a slider caliper ??VWCOOL wrote:54mmjakjones wrote:So what size pistons are in those slider calipers ??
GT ?
Jak
Correct me if I am wrong please .
Jak
gayanne Officially Full-On Dubber
307 posts · joined May 2004 ·
Vwcool,you also need to read back at some of my quotes and understand some of those points,there are basic technical questions you have not comment on all mybe a bit hard for you to understand.Ill stand by my comment about your brakes and to say your brakes are as good to the leading brands you need to back that up.Vwcool like you said everybody has there opinion end of debate.JVLRacing:P
bugboymatt Custom Title Time!
1,405 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Are these gona be servo assisted !!! Sorry if mentioned before.
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
gayanne Officially Full-On Dubber
307 posts · joined May 2004 ·
:kissJVLRacing
malcolm Insano Dub Head
812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
a friend of mine has used the same brake set up that your building ,its been on his car for about 2 years and he is also using ford eb rear calipers with a 9mm solid disk and it was also power assisted.did have balance issues and know going to pedal box set up.vwcool the brake test the engineer will do is 15 stops 0-60-0 to pull .54g,s 2 stops 0-100-0 to pull .78g,s and a maxium brake force of 45kg or 425 nm , with thows test they like power assisted brakes I,m looking at using remote boosters because of the maxium force required on the brake pedal.I can see the different point of veiws its good and the effort your going to. the worry is some people might read what your doing and go out and tyr and build the system without proper understanding.
gayanne Officially Full-On Dubber
307 posts · joined May 2004 ·
Well done Malcolm,I new there would be a balance issue and some testing involved .Did he also upgrade rear brakes to a bigger size all was the powered booster good enought to run the fluid?JVLRacing
Flintstones Custom Title Time!
1,077 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Malcom, this really isn't rocket science, it's just being able to use a ruler and doing a bit of research. I've built a kit just like this one being discussed some time ago and it's not that hard.malcolm wrote:the worry is some people might read what your doing and go out and tyr and build the system without proper understanding.
Just like VWCOOL I've used VL Turbo calipers, VW bearings, Ford studs, 300mm rotor etc that have already been ADR'ed so there really is no reason for any engineer not to approve. My hub is a machined down VW rotor (VW Rotor is already ADR'ed) and the caliper adapter is made from billet steel.
The only part the engineer can assess is the caliper adapter as this is the only part that is being made. If an engineer doesn't pass this upgrade I'd suggest looking for a new engineer!!
Pity I won't be using it now as I've gone another direction....
cheers
[Edited on 12-4-2005 by Flintstones]
malcolm Insano Dub Head
812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
he used the rear ford setup from the start.
malcolm Insano Dub Head
812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
flintsones not everydbody is mechanically minded and the engineer will look at the application not just componnents .I spoke to my engineer about this topic and he is also an engineer at PBR brakes.Like I said discussion is and everybody learns.
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Gayanne, you haven't really added anything to this discussion really... and I'm still wondering why you bothered to stick your head into this thread.gayanne wrote:Vwcool,you also need to read back at some of my quotes and understand some of those points,there are basic technical questions you have not comment on all mybe a bit hard for you to understand.Ill stand by my comment about your brakes and to say your brakes are as good to the leading brands you need to back that up.Vwcool like you said everybody has there opinion end of debate.JVLRacing:P
You seem to be good at dishing out 'stick' on product you demonstrably have little knowledge of and yet after several prompts from me in this thread, and responses from you, you haven't yet justified why you think an OE finned alloy calliper, from one of the world's most highly-regarded brake manufacturers and designed for use on a V8 Corvette, isn't suitable for 'track' work:duh.
Every aspect of my brake conversion has been discussed ad nauseum here on this thread. I have listed, and discussed and answered questions about component selection; Design process; Laws pertaining to modified cars; The machining I commissioned. I even found a budget-priced wheel that fits! Testing; Pad compound; Master cylinder; Bias; Code of Practice. I even added pics! Look! Wow!
And because I thought other VW enthusiasts would be interested (it seems I was right!) I'm sharing the testing of the prototype brakes, as it happens, to fellow forum dudes that are interested.
Either justify why you don't like what I am doing (as I have prompted you to - and pleeeze, no more 'leading brand' fetishes like what is fitted to your car... ) or offer us all something - anything! - constructive in the discussion.
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
malcolm Insano Dub Head
812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
vwcool have you spoken to anyone that racers with that caliper ie brute utes etc I,m just woundering about caliper flex .
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Fair point... But really, the machining involved rrequires a certain amount of brains. There is as much a chance of someone randomly building a system such as this as there is of a bloke with a garden hose thinking he can spraypaint.. :thumbmalcolm wrote:the worry is some people might read what your doing and go out and tyr and build the system without proper understanding.
Pay your debts, CxxT
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
No. Racing 'Brute utes' use a Harrop calliper, from memory.malcolm wrote:vwcool have you spoken to anyone that racers with that caliper ie brute utes etc I,m just woundering about caliper flex .
But after having these 'Corvette' or 'VL Turbo' brakes pull up my 1500+kg modified, cammed, headed, yadda yadda V8 Calais for four years, I have very little concern about calliper flex in a Beetle, especially without the extra force of power-assisted brakes. The fins on the design help to stiffen the casting as well as shed heat. They are far stiffer than, say, HQ Holden callipers that although 30 years old, are often used for brake conversions.
Don't forget, these brakes were used in 'showroom stock' racing Commodore SSs in the early 90s and although they were never designed as V8Supercar brakes, they didn't seem to kill anyone famous! I reckon they are so far under their design ceiling with just 800kg of VW it's almost funny!😀
That's one of the reasons why I selected them.
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Dunno! Didn't look! Don't care! 😉I was looking at the area of the brake pad :thumb and attempting to maintain a good relationship with the rear piston size of the Ford callipers I will eventually fit when testing is completed with te T3 drumsjakjones wrote:isn't 2 x 40mm pistons in the OE ATE caliper better than 1x 50mm in a slider caliper ??VWCOOL wrote:54mmjakjones wrote:So what size pistons are in those slider calipers ??
GT ?
Jak
Correct me if I am wrong please .
Jak
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
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Pay your debts, CxxT
malcolm Insano Dub Head
812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
have you heard about anyone having the pads drop out
Flintstones Custom Title Time!
1,077 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
You are right that the engineer will look at the whole application to make sure it all works and doesn't foul on anything, but at the end of the day is he/she not going give the go ahead because you used a vl caliper? the only part(s) they can only assess is the custom made components as most of the other parts are already ADR'ed.malcolm wrote:flintsones not everydbody is mechanically minded and the engineer will look at the application not just componnents .I spoke to my engineer about this topic and he is also an engineer at PBR brakes.Like I said discussion is and everybody learns.
Cheers
malcolm Insano Dub Head
812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
no
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Absolutely impossible with the correct disc - I have matched a 24mm AU Falcon disc with a calliper that requires a 23mm disc (ie: VN-VS V8). But yes, I have heard of pad problems with dodgy conversions that use a big calliper (like a VT or AUII calliper) over standard discs that are too thin (eg: non-vented and the calliper is designed for a vented rotor). It's deadly when the rotor and pads wear a bit and the calliper pistons fall out :jesusmalcolm wrote:have you heard about anyone having the pads drop out
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
malcolm Insano Dub Head
812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
I wouldn,t so impossible under racing conditions
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Racing, street, whatever... doesnlt matter. Like I said, it's impossible with correct design. Absolutely impossible.malcolm wrote:I wouldn,t so impossible under racing conditions
Pay your debts, CxxT
malcolm Insano Dub Head
812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
I,m into hi-end audio as well and this is like the argument valves are better than solid state and vice versa in what you use,its good to have commitment in what you do and do it well .all the best.
Che Castro ankle straps
1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
[/quote]
isn't 2 x 40mm pistons in the OE ATE caliper better than 1x 50mm in a slider caliper ??
Correct me if I am wrong please .
Jak [/quote]
Dunno! Didn't look! Don't care! 😉I was looking at the area of the brake pad :thumb and attempting to maintain a good relationship with the rear piston size of the Ford callipers I will eventually fit when testing is completed with te T3 drums
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL] [/quote]
Not trying to be rude, but I would have thought that piston area would be pretty important in acheiving the correct f/r bias as well as pedal effort required. I understand a larger pad would dissipate heat faster and resist fade, but actual clamping force would be a product of the surface area of the MC x piston(s) x leverage of pedal and pedal force, right? So the size of the pad would be irelevant regarding actual braking force. the actual pad is a lot wider than the face of the piston as well as the caliper being of a sliding design (so it moves around) so the pad would probably not be in 100% contact with the disc the whole time anyway right?
Not trying to slag you off or anything - just up for some healthy discussion. Just curious about why you said you chose it on the size of the brake pad. I have the EA/B falcon setup on the rear of my bug and I'd be interested in having something to match up front as well. Nice work so far though 🙂
isn't 2 x 40mm pistons in the OE ATE caliper better than 1x 50mm in a slider caliper ??
Correct me if I am wrong please .
Jak [/quote]
Dunno! Didn't look! Don't care! 😉I was looking at the area of the brake pad :thumb and attempting to maintain a good relationship with the rear piston size of the Ford callipers I will eventually fit when testing is completed with te T3 drums
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL] [/quote]
Not trying to be rude, but I would have thought that piston area would be pretty important in acheiving the correct f/r bias as well as pedal effort required. I understand a larger pad would dissipate heat faster and resist fade, but actual clamping force would be a product of the surface area of the MC x piston(s) x leverage of pedal and pedal force, right? So the size of the pad would be irelevant regarding actual braking force. the actual pad is a lot wider than the face of the piston as well as the caliper being of a sliding design (so it moves around) so the pad would probably not be in 100% contact with the disc the whole time anyway right?
Not trying to slag you off or anything - just up for some healthy discussion. Just curious about why you said you chose it on the size of the brake pad. I have the EA/B falcon setup on the rear of my bug and I'd be interested in having something to match up front as well. Nice work so far though 🙂
Jon
malcolm Insano Dub Head
812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
che castro whats your front brakes.
Che Castro ankle straps
1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
right now they are the early twin pin type 3 calipers. twin 40mm pistons. Mind you this is on my project car which I am in the process of building not on a running car
Jon
malcolm Insano Dub Head
812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
try that combo first don,t forget your rolling mass is in the back and when vwcool gets his sorted out that could be the go or give vforce a ring and don,t forget to look at remote boosters.it doesn,t matter what kit you use its up to you to get it adr passed on the car.
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
isn't 2 x 40mm pistons in the OE ATE caliper better than 1x 50mm in a slider caliper ??Che Castro wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong please .
Jak [/quote]
Dunno! Didn't look! Don't care! 😉I was looking at the area of the brake pad :thumb and attempting to maintain a good relationship with the rear piston size of the Ford callipers I will eventually fit when testing is completed with te T3 drums
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL] [/quote]
Not trying to be rude, but I would have thought that piston area would be pretty important in acheiving the correct f/r bias as well as pedal effort required. I understand a larger pad would dissipate heat faster and resist fade, but actual clamping force would be a product of the surface area of the MC x piston(s) x leverage of pedal and pedal force, right? So the size of the pad would be irelevant regarding actual braking force. the actual pad is a lot wider than the face of the piston as well as the caliper being of a sliding design (so it moves around) so the pad would probably not be in 100% contact with the disc the whole time anyway right?
Not trying to slag you off or anything - just up for some healthy discussion. Just curious about why you said you chose it on the size of the brake pad. I have the EA/B falcon setup on the rear of my bug and I'd be interested in having something to match up front as well. Nice work so far though 🙂 [/quote]
No problem - happy to discuss. Keep in mind that brake pad backing plates aren't made of custard - they are stiff enough to transfer the action of the piston across the surface of the rotor... but yes, some OE designs do suffer from pad flex and uneven pad wear when 'pushed too hard'.
But as I memntioned earlier in this thread, there are a lot of factors apart from just the size of brake pad to consider when stuffing around with brakes. Your theory/background on brake pad area, piston size, load distribution etc etc is all correct and if I had to design and manufacture the calliper from 'scratch', I would have had to give those factors a lot more thought. But hey... PBR has already done all that hard work!
All I had to do was choose callipers from the wreckers that will fit the wheels, fit the rotors I have chosen (that match the calliper specs), fit on the Beetle somehow and work effectively with other components in the system that I have either specified myself (Kombi master cylinder) or for reasons of architecture or engineering, can't change (eg: Beetle brake pedal stroke)
The perfect solution to any brake transplant is to use a complete system from another heavier or higher-performance car with similar architecture - discs, callipers, master cylinder plus any prop aids. EG: a T3 Wagon braking system is a great upgrade into a Beetle. Everything bolts on (callipers, drums) and is designed to slow down more mass than a Beetle's. This 'reserve strength' in the T3 parts means a Beetle with T3 brakes can stop quicker, for longer.
Similarly, a VT-VY Commodore brake system (twin-piston callipers designed for 2000kg) is a great upgrade into an old 1980s Commodore (around 1350kg). It's not quite bolt-on like a Type 3 VW upgrade into Beetle, but you get the idea..
I have simply used this really simple engineering philosophy to fit brakes from an 1800kg V8 police car onto a little 800kg Beetel for what I reckon will be stunning brakes.
By staying as close as possible to factory specifications (disc diameter, thickness, master cylinder size etc etc) for my vented brake upgrade, the only 'variables' or 'unknowns' I have to consider are weight distribution (Beetle engine in the rear rather than Falcon's in the front) and therefore brake bias.
Due to design, there is no late-model Falcon front calliper suitable for the VW BJ front end. But by choosing a Holden calliper with similar piston size (and teh bonus of better durability charcteristics - finned body etc) and subsituting a master cylinder with similar size to the OE Ford and Holden setup (all run similar size - around 1-inch) , I have managed to stay close to the specs of a full 'factory engineered' braking system with its inherent durability, bias and performance characteristics.
[Edited on 13/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
lol.. but people don't die if they choose the wrong amp, huhmalcolm wrote:I,m into hi-end audio as well and this is like the argument valves are better than solid state and vice versa in what you use,its good to have commitment in what you do and do it well .all the best.
(There is no real 'argument' or 'committment' here.. I am simply explaining what I have done, the rules I had to follow, and why I did what I have done... but for some reason, some people don't seem to be able to accept it!)
Pay your debts, CxxT
GTMac Fahrvergnugen
976 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·
Cool, next time Im at Pick'n'Payless at Blacktown I'll grab that 944 setup, Im sure there is one sitting in between the 5022 Commodores and 9213 Falcons!gayanne wrote:Ok Craig good questions,To get a caliper of the shelf will take some mods. Alternative braking and if not better would be a Porsche 944 setup or other and this is a proven product which is worth $1500 .JVLRacing
Honestly, some people need to pull their head in. Im in line for a VWCOOL setup and happy to know I can walk down to Repco for replacement parts. He aint going to flog these off before fully satisfied with testing on his own vehicle. Questions, queries, all good as its thought prevocing and possibly leads to a better well thought out package but some of the critism is just plain rediculous.
In saying that and eating my own words cause I had to get on the thread, "Gayanne" with your intelligent contribution to this thread you honestly should take a hard look at your log on name cause I cant wait to see that road/race package develloped and distrubuted by JVLRacing, cause thats a name that stands in line with PBR, DBA, Ford, Holden..............what testing would these hacks do?
1971 Type 3 Fasty - EJ20T
I love 242HP sleepers. 🤪
How many sets of lights does it take a $229k Carrera S to learn? 😂 UPDATE: Cayman S, M3, B4 now added to the list.
I love 242HP sleepers. 🤪
How many sets of lights does it take a $229k Carrera S to learn? 😂 UPDATE: Cayman S, M3, B4 now added to the list.
VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome
5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Type 3 installation will probably be next on the 'to-do' list. My little crystal ball tells me there will be one or two Porsche-killing Subaru WRX powered sleeper Type IIIs cruising the streets of Sydney in the not-too-distant future...😉VWCOOL wrote:If the demand is there, I will look at helping-out 'silly' 😉 Super owners who have too much go! Supers might be able to use the same bracket and stuff... Maybe it might just be a one-off machining operation of the strut with a new bracket using my standard hub and rotor... are the bearings the same? I'm not sure cos I haven't had a look!! I'm still working out things on my own car!!Doug Sweetman wrote:Mate, if (hopefully when) I had the $$ required I would jump at your kit on the front, XF - EB kit on the back and bigger master cylinder. That would stop anything that I would ever want to put in my car.
Will this setup work with an L bug macpherson front ? or is that setup different ?
[Edited on 13/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 13/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT