Big brakes for Beetle NOW WITH EVEN MORE PICS!!

VWCOOL · 2005-03-29T02:27:46+00:00

For the last year or so, I have been developing a big brake package for the front end of BJ Beetles that I hope to manufacture and sell to other VW enthusiasts. Yesterday, I fitted my prototype package to the front end of my hottie Oval for road testing so I thought I'd take a few pics... This upgrade consists of modified spindles and a hub and calliper bracket machined from billet. The calliper I have chosen is the common, low-cost and very effective single-piston sliding finned aluminium PBR Corvette/Holden calliper, commonly known as the 'VL Turbo' calliper used on VL-VS Holden/HSV V8s. The disc is a 290/24mm vented unit made by DBA for an XR8 Falcon. Using as many OE parts as possible means there are no problems with low-cost spares supply in the future. Regular and high-performance brake pads, rebuild kits and rotors will be available almost forever. The hub is machined with the correct 'spigot' size to positively locate the centre of the wheel, a common (and technically illegal) omission with aftermarket brakes and a common reason for refusal at engineering/rego time. Unlike some aftermarket packages, there is no increase in track and the bearings and seals are standard VW. With more than double the pad area and a huge increase in heat-absorbing and heat-shedding ability, the braking effectiveness and fade resistance for super-quick street Beetles and Buggies (eg: WRX power, 1916cc, strokers, turbos etc etc) goes without saying. I have designed the package to fit inside 15-inch or larger Porsche or Ford wheels. Due to the calliper's size (double that of std ATE/Beetle), they will NOT fit inside widened VW wheels. My prototype runs a Ford stud pattern and Falcon AU 15x6-inch rims, which are a perfect fit under my standard guards. I chose these rims (and the Falcon PCD) for reasons of cost and popularity: Falcon wheels are piled up in wrecking yards, are cheap, and there is a huge range of factory and aftermarket wheels, too. EF-EL 'cop chaser' 15x6-inch rims (with less backspace) are an alternative for people who wish to 'fill out' widened guards, as are the later-model AUII-BA 16x7-inch steel rims. Of course, the Porsche stud pattern will also be available to those who wish to use or retain Porsche wheels. Note, too, that the conversion uses wheel studs - much more user-friendly than VW's original bolts! After I am happy with the front upgrade performance (currently testing with T3 rear drums) and master cylinder choice, this front brake upgrade will be tested with a disc rear for a super-effective street legal (all-new parts - no restudding) high-performance Beetle brake upgrade. [Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL] [Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL] [Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]

Brad Wolfsburg Elder

3,764 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 13 Apr 2005, 7:54 pm

#335714

Good work VWCOOL, good to see someone putting their design and work out there to be criticised by so many arm chair racers.

Keep up the good work, look forward to seeing the finished product.

Brad
Why copy when you can own an original ?
Meyers Manx Australia

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 14 Apr 2005, 8:43 am

#336119

:thumb If it wasn't so serious, it'd be funny!

(Criticism is no problem... But it MUST be justified or backed up in some way... and I'm still waiting for some people to justify thier criticism of this PBR equipment)

[Edited on 13/4/2005 by VWCOOL]

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Herbie 53 Bugs are not nearly enough

764 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 14 Apr 2005, 8:47 am

#336124

Tall poppy syndrome demonstration in effect

keep up the good work vw cool, I'm sick of wandering through intersections with my brakes held hard, doing EFF ALL.

62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.

Andy42 Insano Dub Head

709 posts · joined Mar 2003 · 14 Apr 2005, 10:13 am

#336163

Yeh VWcool if there were more people like you out there trying to solve the shit vw brake issues instead of just bagging those who try to do just that we would be better of.

Oh do not supose you have a set of brack caliper mounts to suit beetle to thing front hey????

[Edited on 14/4/2005 by Andy42]

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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 14 Apr 2005, 6:25 pm

#336484

Andy42 wrote:Yeh VWcool if there were more people like you out there trying to solve the shit vw brake issues instead of just bagging those who try to do just that we would be better of.

Oh do not supose you have a set of brack caliper mounts to suit beetle to thing front hey????

[Edited on 14/4/2005 by Andy42]

You mean some Thing things? :thumb No, I don't. But it should be easy for a machine shop/engineering company to make a set

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Andy42 Insano Dub Head

709 posts · joined Mar 2003 · 14 Apr 2005, 6:40 pm

#336498

yeh we can get them made i just thought..... you know if you had a set laying around somewhere :P

.

malcolm Insano Dub Head

812 posts · joined Nov 2004 · 28 Apr 2005, 6:23 pm

#346076

vwcool hows the brake testing going

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 2 May 2005, 6:49 pm

#348762

Update!

Due to a bunch of work-related trips etc, I have done nothing on my big brake upgrade in the last couple of weeks! BUT I pick up teh rear discs from the machinist on Wednesday 4/5 and I hope to have them on the rear of my test car this weekend. Thsi will alow me to (at last!) validate my calcs (fingers crossed!) for F/R bias etc... and sort out the handbrake cables!

It will be interesting to see how the rear EA-based discs work with the big AU Falcon fronts - my testing has demonstrated to me and others that have driven the car that upgrading the front brakes without the rears (ie retaining T3 rear drums with standard linings) isn't worth the $$ or effort...

More info soon!

Pay your debts, CxxT

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 7 May 2005, 6:39 pm

#352074

Update again! Just spent a pleasant hour or two fitting the rear discs to my Beetle. I used fully reconditioned Falcon callipers (good fit for Beetles and Type 3s) and like my vented front upgrade, use DBA slotted rotors and Ultimate pads. People that are familiar with what I am doing will know that I retained the Falcon stud pattern. My rear guards are flared a little (1 inch or so by pulling them out!) and I run a fair bit of neg camber up front (which leans the wheels in at the top) so I reckon I'll fit some EF rims, which have less backspace and will 'fill' the guards a little better. The AU Falcon 15x6-inch rims are a perfect fit with standard guards.
I had a quick spin around the block. Naturally, with only 2 or 3km on them, it's really far too early to judge. But all feels good so far... More info soon!

[Edited on 8/5/2005 by VWCOOL]

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Doug Sweetman Nil Bastardo Carborundum

2,128 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 11 May 2005, 1:21 pm

#354181

I had a quick read the other day of my vw manual, and it looks to me like the spindle dimensions are identical between super beetle and ball joint front ends. Certainly they use the same bearings and the same brake calipers as the standard BJ front discs, so it would tend to suggest (which is logical) that the whole setup is identical. My 73 has the girling type caliper if that means anything.

Can you run me through why you need to machine the spindle ? I must be missing something.... (U2U me if you dont want to post it) as I though the hub (which I am assuming is complete custom ? ie not a machined down disc or anything like that ?) in conjunction with the caliper bracket would provide the correct positioning of disc to caliper, and you already mentioned the setup used standard vw bearings didnt you ?

Cheers

Oasis Going alone...

1,806 posts · joined Jul 2003 · 11 May 2005, 1:54 pm

#354198

I think you're doing a great job VWCOOL. I'm just wondering with ths size of the brakes if they will get hot enough to work to their proper capacity, or will they be so over engineered that it won't be an issue anyway? Well researched too and a good read.

"Tell him 'We've already got one'"

NigeType3 Officially Full-On Dubber

371 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 14 May 2005, 12:35 pm

#356053

Dude check out the latest Ultra VW they have done an artical on the CSP wide five vented & drilled disk brake conversion.
THey look piss weak compared to yours it uses single piston Vauxhall/ Opel calipers and you need to upgrade your master cylinder as well.

Just thort you'd be interested Nige.

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 30 May 2005, 9:49 pm

#364781

Oasis wrote:I think you're doing a great job VWCOOL. I'm just wondering with ths size of the brakes if they will get hot enough to work to their proper capacity, or will they be so over engineered that it won't be an issue anyway? Well researched too and a good read.

Unike competition, track-only pads, standard 'road' friction material is required to work at 100 percent efficiency from cold (standard late-model cars don't needs thier brakes warmed up) so by using road-style Bendix Ultimate pads that work 100 percent when cold, there is no problem with on-road performance. And if they are big enough to pull up a 1600kg cop car from cold (or hot!) I reckon they will do the job on a Beetle, even when being punished on a track.

Doug Sweetman.. you have made me realise that I should have used the words 'machined front brake mount'... the 'stub axle machining' is not of the 'axle' or bearing area, but of the area where the calliper bolts on. The original two bolt holes are machined off and a purpose-manufactured bracket bolted on to mount the Commodore calliper. As outlined earlier, my big vented brake upgrade uses a brand-new hub machined especially for the task; it accepts std Beetle bearings and a late-model Falcon 'hat style' vented rotor. There is no change (increase or decrease) in the VW track so there are no issues or guessing games with guard/wheel clearance. In other words, if you have 15x6-inch wheels with a particular offset and they don't rub/foul anywhere with your current alignment settings, then nothing changes.

By careful selection of parts, I made sure the hub design has enough 'flexibility' to be configured with Porsche or any other PCD between 114.3 (Falcon/Magna/Subaru) 120 (Commodore/BMW) and 130 (VW/Porsche) or anything in between, in either four or five stud.

The only objective I didn't achieve with my design was compatibility with 15x6-inch widened VW four-stud steel rims. Rim-to-calliper clearance with the internal shape of the VW rim and my chosen Commodore V8 calliper made it impossible... trust me, I tried!!!

For my own car and the prototype hubs, I chose a Ford stud pattern as I wanted to use cheap Falcon wheels (15x6-inch) and experiment with offsets: There is a 25mm difference between 1990s EF-EL and late model AU-BA.

As photos earlier in this thread show, the cheapo AU1 15x6-inch wheels and 205/60/15 tyres are a perfect fit under standard steel front guards. With 25mm less backspace, the EF rims (also cheap!) stick things out further to 'fill' fatter Aero-style guards OR can be used for street/comp cars with greater neg camber to allow more clearance to the front shock tower and swaybar. My BJ car is currently running only about 1/2 to 1 degree negative camber and there is plenty of clearance everywhere, even at full steering lock.

[Edited on 30/5/2005 by VWCOOL]

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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 31 May 2005, 9:03 am

#364933

THIS WEEK'S UPDATE!
Instead of working, I spent another pleasant afternoon mucking around with my big vented four-wheel disc brake upgrade. Today's challenge was to get the handbrake working. With advice from a few others on this forum (Alex, Jak, Dave - thanks!), I decided to investigate using the standard Beetle handbrake cables to save on the cost of getting 'proper' custom Falcon/Beetle jobbies made.

I had to muck around with the cable at both ends (spacers at the lever end, plus extend the cable mounting bracket on the Ford calliper) and 'buzz' out the inside diameter of the 'hook' on the VW cable, plus drill a new hole on the Ford handbrake lever to 'speed up' the operating lever length, add some bolts to attatch the VW cable ends and voila! Now I have a handbrake! There are 12 'clicks' on the VW handbrake lever and with six clicks, my car is immovable!
Yeehah!

I will probably refine the design to cut down on the number of extra parts required and make it more 'DIY friendly' but for now, it all works like the makers intended.

I think I mentioned earlier; previous testing showed me I had too much front bias - the big vented front rotors and Commodore callipers were locking before the EA Falcon rears. After discussing things with a few people, I decided to instal an adjustable bias valve in the front brake circuit. Unconventional... yes, but according to a couple of brake specialists and my rego engineer, it's an acceptable modification as long as the bias is not easily 'fiddled with'.

Unfortunately, my Beetle is now unregistered (bit hard to get rego with no handbrake!!) so I can't go caning up and down the Old Pacific Highway to get the bias spot-on... Yet!

I'll get rego later this week... stay tuned for the next exciting episode!!!

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MikeM Buggy Head

1,429 posts · joined Aug 2003 · 31 May 2005, 10:20 am

#364957

Good work, good to see someone getting an Aussie Big Brake kit under development.

Are you using a completely custom front hub or are you using an AU falcon front hub with some machining performed to it? I understand you are using falcon rotors but I can't find where you've mentioned which hubs you've used.

Keep up the good work, and thanks for the updates.

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Brad Wolfsburg Elder

3,764 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 31 May 2005, 10:46 am

#364969

Adjustable bias valves are illegal in QLD, I use one to setup then get it bench tested and a fixed one made to suit, maybe you could do the same

Brad
Why copy when you can own an original ?
Meyers Manx Australia

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 31 May 2005, 12:18 pm

#365010

Buggy Brad wrote:Adjustable bias valves are illegal in QLD, I use one to setup then get it bench tested and a fixed one made to suit, maybe you could do the same

My engineer in NSW (who does national work) reckons if it is hidden (ie: buried under a fuel tank or somesuch) and/or has its knob removed, all is good... I'd like to get a 'fixed' unit made, but with so may different cars these brakes can go onto, it'd be difficult to decide on the correct one-size-fits-all bias

[Edited on 31/5/2005 by VWCOOL]

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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 31 May 2005, 12:20 pm

#365011

MikeM wrote:Good work, good to see someone getting an Aussie Big Brake kit under development.

Are you using a completely custom front hub or are you using an AU falcon front hub with some machining performed to it? I understand you are using falcon rotors but I can't find where you've mentioned which hubs you've used.

Keep up the good work, and thanks for the updates.

A very nice, very high quality, very expensive custom hub unit on VW bearings and stub...

Pay your debts, CxxT

Oasis Going alone...

1,806 posts · joined Jul 2003 · 31 May 2005, 12:41 pm

#365027

Thanks for that. Have you tried them in the wet? My brakes are greatly adversely affected when it rains. It virtually doubles the stopping distance (They work incredibly well in the dry). I don't know if it's because of the pads, or temperature??? Have you tested this out yet? I drove past you a little while back on Galston Rd. Your car is absolutely beautiful.

"Tell him 'We've already got one'"

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 31 May 2005, 7:05 pm

#365214

Oasis wrote:Thanks for that. Have you tried them in the wet? My brakes are greatly adversely affected when it rains. It virtually doubles the stopping distance (They work incredibly well in the dry). I don't know if it's because of the pads, or temperature??? Have you tested this out yet? I drove past you a little while back on Galston Rd. Your car is absolutely beautiful.

lol.... you didn't look too close... my poor little Oval looks like a piece of sh*t! Poor little fellah needs some attention, which it'll get when the big brakes are sorted and the big engine put back in.
No, I haven't driven in the rain. But my HSV pulls up a-okay in the wet, so I don't see why a VW with almost the same hardware shouldn't...?

[Edited on 31/5/2005 by VWCOOL]

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pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 31 May 2005, 7:45 pm

#365244

The only issue might be tyre grip. There is less weight in a beetle hence less footprint/friction for the same tyre size.
But i'm sure you're already ahead of me there. Smaller tyres on the beetle right? 😉

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 31 May 2005, 9:28 pm

#365336

pete wood wrote:The only issue might be tyre grip. There is less weight in a beetle hence less footprint/friction for the same tyre size.
But i'm sure you're already ahead of me there. Smaller tyres on the beetle right? 😉

Actually, I'm running a 205/60/15 all round which is a little larger than I'd like under the front... but my super-sticky tyres came at a good price and Falken don't do a 195/60 in my chosen (sticky) compound. I used to run a 195/50. Low pressures in the 205s help, but the lack of weight over the front end is a factor in my having to reduce the front brake bias by installing a valve in the front brake circuit. Craig's hillclimb car has its battery mounted up front to keep some weight over the front wheels and I NEVER used to circuit-sprint my car unless I had an almost full tank of fuel...

[Edited on 31/5/2005 by VWCOOL]

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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 7 Jun 2005, 10:01 am

#368462

Well... what a few days. The Oval 'test' car is once again registered and after a marathon weekend of work, now has been nearly totally rewired, has its 'bent' front upper arms reinstalled (I removed them to check on teh fit of Falcon AU rims with my brakes), new Noltec bushes in the rear suspension, new softer rear dampers (I took out my Bilsteins and replaced them with Cofap gas... for an experiment!) and a whole lot of other little 'tidy ups'.

But it is the brakes that are perplexing me... after initial testing showed the fronts were locking up, I now have the situation where the rears are locking, even with my new bias valve backed right off! It seems to me that I should have given the rears more time to 'bed in' before I started passing judgement on the system's bias...! Possibly, my front/rear bias with the Commodore/Falcon callipers was correct after all! You live and learn!

I have also learnt there are at least three different handbrakes used on Beetles from 1968-on. Sorting out the handbrake for the Falcon EA callipers has been easy, but time consuming. Several others on here (Jakriz, Alex Holzl et al) mentioned that the standard VW handbrake cables were a drop-on fit. Not for me they weren't! However, I have sorted out most of the issues with cable length and mounting. I drilled another hole in the handbrake levers on the callipers to get the best 'swing'. I will be playing with the three handbrake levers to determine which is best...possibly this afternoon.

And then I must swap the bias valve from the front brakes to the rear brake circuit and go out and play some more...

To be continued!

[Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]

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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 7 Jun 2005, 10:05 am

#368464

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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 7 Jun 2005, 10:07 am

#368465

[Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]

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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 7 Jun 2005, 10:10 am

#368467

Here's a shot of my rear hub showing the centre spigot that locates the wheel - better way of doing things than relying on just the wheel studs. Depending on costs (!!) I would like to get these manufactured so I can supply them to others. This would be far better than the usual welded hubs....

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pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 7 Jun 2005, 10:45 am

#368490

what are you using for a caliper bracket on the back?

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 7 Jun 2005, 10:52 am

#368495

If it wasn't 8 pages long, I'd say read the thread! 😉 I have attempted to explain every detail of my big vented brake conversion. Rear is (almost) standard Falcon, front is a machined bracket that I had made to suit the Commodore calliper and vented AU disc

[Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]

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pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 7 Jun 2005, 10:57 am

#368500

how much for a pair of brackets and 5 stud rear hubs? I'd go to the wreckers for the rest of the stuff.

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 7 Jun 2005, 11:05 am

#368508

The machining of the front BJ stub axles and design and manufacture of the prototype front brackets and hubs cost me $2095.50. Callipers are anything from free (I pulled mine from my own V8 Calais when I fitted Group A brakes) to new at $190 ea; Ultimate pads were $150-ish, bearings were 30 bux I think, new wheel studs were $100 and rotors around $130 ea.

The modification/machining of the rear Falcon calliper brackets and re-manufacture and restudding of the hubs etc to allow them to be mounted to the Beetle trailing arms cost around $500 (I can't lay my hands on the tax invoice). Once again, not counting the cost of callipers/brackets ($80 at wreckers) and rotors (new $130 ea).

I will determine retail prices when I have completed all costings and testing.

[Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]

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