Geez , you guys are really , I mean really weird . I done Mechanical engineering too and fair enough what you two are saying is right . But each to his own .
Firstly if you want all revs with smaller cc 's can you afford the titanium valves triple valve springs to do it ? The way I see it is I look at what other people do with VW motors . Not motorbike engines or F1 cars and see how much it costs then apply it to my own car . If you got the money to make a VW rev to 12000 RPM then go ahead . Imagine the heat the engine will make . And think of how your going to cool that engine down ? There are just so many variables that none of you guys will consider . But on a budget of $10k nothing beats a 2332 with 48's , a magneto and some superflo heads . Anyone disagree then we will see if your motor runs 10's with your combo .
What??? Use a stroker crank Seb? Are u insane?? Heh Heh........... at the end of the day u can't beat cubic inches. Period. Especially on a street motor, where heat is a main concern for a air cooled motor.
regards
Jak
[Edited on 26-4-2003 by jakriz]
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
You cant use triple springs though. Cos the stock pushrods wont take it. They can only safely handle 18450 rpm as it is with stock springs. Of course you can use cro-mo but then the coefficients of linear expansion take over and you would then have to set valve clearances at 50 thou when cold to get your 4 thou hot and then.........
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
More fuel doesn't necessarily turn into more cranks - look at the S2000 engine (167 kW, 2.0 litre) versus the Buick V6 3.8 (157 kW) in the current Commodore. The S2000 is also more fuel efficient than the Commodore. It's about efficiency, too.
Andrew
[Edited on 26-4-2003 by vanderaj]
Craig Torrens6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
as is discussing the issue with scientific fact, common sense, and logic. 😀
it's way more fun to be a proponent of outdated principles and be a follower, than use your head and nut it out yourself.
i dunno if this is gonna make any diff. and at the end of the day i reckon it's a waste of time talking to the closed minded, but i live in hope.
SO. Maybe we can't build a vw engine to rev as high as a formula one car, or as high as some motorbikes... but we can apply the principles and get similar results.
thanks auto stik for the figures.. four times as much weight? at only 6000 rpm....so balancing an engine well becomes more and more important if we want it to rev at all efficiently (if opposing forces and weights like the swing of the crank and conrods aren't within a couple grams, things can get out of shape very quickly *ta autostik*) and the longer the stroke, the more critical the balancing is for revvability. But balancing is only half the battle, the engine has to breathe and get petch in to fill the combustion chamber quickly. this is harder the longer the chamber is.. possibly the reason why there are so few tractors racing these days.
the centrifugal forces generated by a stroker crank are huge. Volkswagen cases are pretty strong, and can take a hammering, but even they can only take so much before they start to become over-stressed and fatigue.
the ability of the engine to aspirate efficiently gets worse and worse the longer the cylinders. 'more cubes' is great, but a longer stroke is not necessarily the way to get it.
craig: how high does your puny 1916cc rev?
just wondering how close you are getting to "mechanical carnage"
anyone know when 'dyno day' is? :o
is there a dyno day?
where?
who?
what?
wouldn't mind knowing what my tired old non-steroid 1916 is doing these days. i changed the spark plugs for the first time after about 100,000 ks, two weeks ago, just out of interest to see if it made a diff. it did. no splutter!
woohoo!
oo and a question, anyone here found the LRP is not all that good for ex-leaded vehicles? is premium unleaded+valve protection any better?
just interested to see what ppl think.
Sure it would be possible to make a VW engine rev to 12,000rpm. The Porche 958 (a Le Mans car, same basic rules as F1) was a derivative of the type 4 with a couple extra cylinders. Mind you, they welded the heads to the cylinders and used titanium valves and springs! 😀
P.S. Triple springs are available for VW heads, they need CrMo rods of course; which are adjusted to zero lash. Such spring pressure is for strip engines, of course, the time between rebuilds (even on aftermarket heads,) would not be practical for the street.
Looks to me like the free-thinking, open-minded innovators are beginning to out number the closed-minded dinosaurs.
I too am getting a real kick out of reading this.
The results of the next dyno day and drag day will be a great comparison. It's one thing to make big power, it's another thing to make big power quickly!
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
So everyone is saying that triple springs is a No-No , the other alternative is titanium valves and dual springs which will rev to about 8500 safely . Not bad but at $130 for each valve it ain't cheap . I also have a feeling 51 Webbers will be the order of the day . Then you have the compression ratio increased to compensate for the extra revs to get more efficiency . Then the extra heat goes in . And you gotta cool the motor down . Its a viscious circle . The easiest and cheapest way out of it is to get a watercooled car and build that up . I may be living in a cave building the same motor as some guy in the states . But I'm not prepared to outlay any more $$$$ to find out how to get more power from the car by revving it . When you throw a rod out your block at 8000 rpm you'll be thinking twice about outlaying money on making the car rev more . Personally I beleive Pobjoy is starting to live to far in the past . His motors are good , BUT , why hasn't he done any research into turbo's , or superchargers . Even fuel injection is out of his league . Technology is progress .
56astro wrote:Looks to me like the free-thinking, open-minded innovators are beginning to out number the closed-minded dinosaurs.
I too am getting a real kick out of reading this.
The results of the next dyno day and drag day will be a great comparison. It's one thing to make big power, it's another thing to make big power quickly!
Bug_racer wrote:So everyone is saying that triple springs is a No-No , the other alternative is titanium valves and dual springs which will rev to about 8500 safely . Not bad but at $130 for each valve it ain't cheap . I also have a feeling 51 Webbers will be the order of the day . Then you have the compression ratio increased to compensate for the extra revs to get more efficiency . Then the extra heat goes in . And you gotta cool the motor down . Its a viscious circle . The easiest and cheapest way out of it is to get a watercooled car and build that up . I may be living in a cave building the same motor as some guy in the states . But I'm not prepared to outlay any more $$$$ to find out how to get more power from the car by revving it . When you throw a rod out your block at 8000 rpm you'll be thinking twice about outlaying money on making the car rev more . Personally I beleive Pobjoy is starting to live to far in the past . His motors are good , BUT , why hasn't he done any research into turbo's , or superchargers . Even fuel injection is out of his league . Technology is progress .
Wasn't Pobjoy the first man on the planet to do 150mph through the 1/4 mile on a motor bike? Supercharged? In 1975?!
Bug_Racer:
"Personally I beleive Pobjoy is starting to live to far in the past . His motors are good , BUT , why hasn't he done any research into turbo's , or superchargers . Even fuel injection is out of his league . Technology is progress ."
actually, i believe stan's open wheeler 1916 might be fuel injected, but i'm not sure.. don't quote me.. anyone know?
I do know however that it's been revving to 9000 rpm for years and mysteriously no rods have poked their ugly heads out of his case.
also, stan has more experience with superchargers than i've had hot dinners, and has built (and rebuilt) heads for turboed beetles. the problem with going that way is expense and longevity and heat. check your facts, Bug_racer. Superchargers and turbos just aren't practical for street use, which is stan's bread and butter. There IS a rumour going around that he's going to drop a blower on his open wheeler some time soon.... I've seen it. 😀
the reason he hasn't done it years ago is simple, he want's to win in a naturally aspirated VW so his detractors can't say "yeah well, if i had a blower i'd be doing the same times"
Stan builds engines for practical use. The fact that he races around in the SAME engine he builds kinda makes sense.
When the nutbags out there finally capitulate to his excessive winning, he'll go all out and change racing categories. and a supercharged 1916 in the back of his openwheeler will just be for fun, instead of what it is now... a reminder to the big mouthed how well he builds engines, and a really loud advertisement of pure, achievable power for prospective customers. go to a hillclimb one day, have a word, let him give you the lowdown. he'd love to have a yarn.:thumb
personally i'm a bit worried about how insanely fast a supercharged 1916 is gonna go. And so are a lot of other people, for different reasons. *rahh rahh rahh*😉
This thread, na I mean this Forum is the battle of the bitches, I can't help but get involved but don't have time too read it its too long.:cry
Peter lenard and others if you piss in his pockets any more you will drown the por little bugger(the Man that is).
Last time I saw his expensive open wheeler some years back at nambucca it was beaten by one beaded bloke in an old hack of a car with carbys and a fan-house, the 'man' tossed his helmut in the mud😀
He run a pre-historic mechanical injection I think.
Wes (HONS) you sure your not a bean counter,I checked out your budget, wow thats optomistic may be you should work at the ABS(not a brake shop)
with a budget like that youd get the job may be in defense they can loose mega bucks.:o
Why don't you just buy a jap shit-box and don't promote vw buggery.
That Baja is seriously butchered. 😠
It is plainley obvious that you can not make much power with a 1916 unless you tweek it to the point of ridiculous, ie 12.5 :1 , expensive heads etc.and then it's a grenade.:cry
hahahahahaahahahahhahhaahha vwmachine,
'expensive' open wheeler
hahhhhahaaa :P
i'm sure it's worth a lot, but probably more for vintage collectors. relative to what is it "expensive"? that ol thing has been around for yeeeeaarrrs. bloody thing causes more trouble than it's worth...
in fact he once christened it 'recalcitrant'
or (willfully disobedient)
enough dodgy people have badmouthed stan's ability, that most people who know first hand are happy to tell the truth. notice he's not interested in answering to idiots anymore *count's stan's posts*
hmmm... NONE :o
if that's pissing in his pocket, i personally hope it's a big pocket.😀
anyone else got any piss?
:puke
Peter Leonard wrote:Superchargers and turbos just aren't practical for street use.
Is this a typo? If its not... errr HULLO ANYBODY HOME???
There IS a rumour going around that he's going to drop a blower on his open wheeler some time soon.... I've seen it. 😀
the reason he hasn't done it years ago is simple, he want's to win in a naturally aspirated VW so his detractors can't say "yeah well, if i had a blower i'd be doing the same times"
Is that your theory or is that what stan says? Putting a blower on his car would send him into the over 3 litre class where he would find things very tough.
Stan builds engines for practical use. The fact that he races around in the SAME engine he builds kinda makes sense.
Absolutely. And good on him. An aussie veedub icon. But even stan cant change the laws of physics. I dont see anyone badmouthing stan at all.
[Edited on 28-4-2003 by amazer]
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
Peter Leonard wrote:Superchargers and turbos just aren't practical for street use
haha i thought it was a type too, look at the Japanese car performance scene, turbo is everything, power on tap when u want it, and it's tame when u don't want it. I mean porsche was one of the pioneers of turbocharging in the early days with the 911 Turbo. Turbocharging or supercharging increases driveability, and properly setup it can run cool and live long 🙂
Lets start another bitch fight!
Jon
Craig Torrens6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
I saw a sticker made for Easter by Richard that said 'Jesus, save me from your followers', maybe we need one made that says 'Stan, save me from your followers'.
regards
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
BizarreModeratorThe artist formerly known as blue74l
LETS ALL GET THIS THREAD BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC. OPEN A NEW TOPIC TO COVER ANYTHING NOT RELATED !!!
This has nothing to do with my engine combo, builder, or anything else, except it may turn people of this forum ! I Enjoy the healthy debates and comical read/responses, but maybe we should have it in the "chat" thread or "Engine combo" topic or something ???😉
hulllooo
sorry. I thought we were talking about supercharging and turboing veedubs....
not easy to jam a blower in a beetle. i can barely get my damn arm in there...
here re-read this 'typo'
superchargers and turbos aren't practical for reliable daily driving in a volkswagen.say, a 1916cc. aircooled. like this forum used to be. now it's more like air-warmed.
go the bitchfest!! woohooooo!! 😀
of course this is my humble opinion. please feel free to disagree and rock up to the drags in your 'daily driver' supercharged dub :thumb
and then let me see the cooling system..
Tah Hi Pete,
Lets just clear a thing or two up.
That car (the mans racer)is a fraction of the wieght and age of the one that beat him at valla , with fan-house +muffler and old bloke who said he only paid $1500 for this old f-vee ?? I was amazed at how noisy the mans car was no muffler, alchohol etc etc but it has that crappy 1916 and it sounded awful !!
I was more amazed at the out-put of the quieter car !
My car has a 1796 cc engine running a K03 turbo, and makes a fine daily driver. 🙂
It has 20 valves... and a water jacket, front mounted intercooler, oil cooled turbo bearings. Makes about 110-120 kW at the flywheel on a good day when the diverter valve is not stuffed as it is right now.
The car is roughly the right shape, but the engine is not where you'd expect it.
Hi Andrew ,
It sounds cool and very fast, if you want it re-chipped I know just the man, not wanting to push his barrow publiclyso U2u me.
Can you reply to this forum the bore and stroke (in mm )and rev range of this engine in std form ?
Well see what all these dudes say about works strokers .:kiss
