Engine building and combos - a chat not an argument!

fullnoise · 2005-10-13T08:57:10+00:00

Over the past 12 months I've discovered that engine building is quite fun. I've also discovered that the difficulty lies in coming up with a good combination. The building bit is fun and it's satisfying to check and measure everything so you know it's going to be right. It's also nice to keep in the back of your mind that all your hard work should pay off. Another fun thing to do is research your engine specifications. There are so many schools of thought and engine combinations that it just makes the mind boggle. I'll tell you my story and you can read it if you're bored. I had a reasonably stong engine of the Stan Pobjoy philosopy that I was quite happy with. I pulled it apart to replace the worn heads and see if the rings and bearings needed a freshen up. I'd thought I'd go a bit further by replacing the camshaft to something with just a little bit more lift. The funny thing is that wanting more is such a trap. I've heard lots of stories about people who've just pushed a combination too far upset things. I've now done it twice. The first mistake I made was with valve size. I thought bigger has got to be better and went wth some 44mm inlet valves on some street eliminator heads. They were fine for about 1000 kms then the valve springs gave up and I started floating the valves at 6000 rpm. We shimmed them up at a hillclimb. We did it in a motel car park in the rain! That was only good for 500 kms then the valves started floating again. I went through another set of valve springs before deciding to get some mild, small valve heads and avoid that problem in the future. Interestingly enough I got 10% more power on the dyno out of 044s with 40 x 35 heads on 10:1 compression than I did with the big valve street eliminators on 9.5:1 compression. This engine combo was good for 88 rear wheel horsepower and a 14.9 second quarter at WISID in my oval with a full size pulley. The 044s were old and were brought back to life only for temporary service. After 2 years of supersprints, drags and street driving I ended up replacing them with some aircooled.net level 5 heads ported and polished by some DRD bloke. I was disappointed when I saw them becasue the ports looked small. They are simply mini D ports and are standard size except where the O goes into the D. But the attention to detail is really impressive on not only the heads but on the manifolds I got at the same time. My second mistake was the cam and lifter change. The refreshed engine with the new heads and Webcam 109 felt strong. Previously I had to get right up the engine even before I let out the clutch to make it perform. The new combination had more torque. You could cruise along and put your foot into it and it would just take off. Im not sure whether that's the portwork, the taller manifolds, 0.5mm extra lift or the combination. I say could because it only lasted 2 supersprints and 1500 kilometers before the lifters stopped spinning and wore badly. I thought I did the right thing using reground original lifters and not the after-market rubbish. I've looked on a lot of engine building forums to try and get to the bottom of the cam and lifter wear problem and let me tell you it's a hot topic. I've considered going to and engle cam with standard lifters. Or getting another webcam but this time with the recommended SLR treated lifters. I've considered using CB performance cam and matching lifters. Each time I've wondered if I should push the combo a little bit more with some extra duration or lift, but then I woke up to myelf. Just go with something that's proven instead of optimistically thinking I'm going to come up with the magic combo. I don't have time for that! I missed 3 races this year because I was pissing about with my engine. Now I think I'm just going to put the old steroid cam and lifters back in the engine because they copped 3 years of punishment and still look great. With a bullet proof combination in my oval perhaps I can build something ridiculous just for fun. Has anyone else got a suggestion for a bullet proof combination that's good for circuit racing and still has a VW logo on it and doesn't need coolant? Gosh what a long post. I don't know what came over me. CYA CT

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 21 Oct 2005, 9:14 pm

#420099

VDubya wrote:OK lets keep it relevent,

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man.......not ONE of you post have been relavent!!

I have had a ball looking at you past posts.

For a newbie you come on here and not one of your posts has provided any helpful information

Ummmm.... do you have any engine combo's to post??............................

Why is it every couple of months we get some one who is TRYING to be funny???

Seriously dude.....keep posting

It is people like you that proves i am not in the the botton 10% :kiss

Futue te ipsum!!!

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 22 Oct 2005, 6:44 am

#420213

There are advantages in reving your engine past the power peak.
It just depends on how fast the power drops off.
In some cases you have to go way past the peak
so that in the next gear the power is still significant.
This is where dyno graphs are very useful.
Even if there is 20 hp less at 7000 for example,
there is still an advantage because when the engine drops
to 5000 in the next gear it may actually be less than this.
This is the reason for closer ratio gears.
Even if you don't believe in a dyno's HP acuracy, knowing
the RPM where peak HP and TORQUE are, can be a great advantage.
Hope this is relevant to the thread.

westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 22 Oct 2005, 6:51 am

#420216

Shiftys engine at 100 Hp should run in the low 14's.
Being that he is building it for Nitrous and for the
street, comprimises to N/A HP have to be made.
With a 100shot, 11's should be achieveable.

westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

shiftyvw Wolfsburg Wizard

523 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 22 Oct 2005, 8:23 am

#420225

thats what i had in mind dave, Ill quite happily compromise my NA power for a larger total figure on gas. I will be trying a very large cam combo due to fact that i want to rev this high when on nitrous, same or higher hp but lower peak cylinder pressures is the idea. Wearing the motor out quickly is not a concern, its not expensive or hard to freshen them up. My llmiting factor at the moment will be the VW id springs. Ill have to check the seat pressure and lift on them.

testing 1 2 3...

fullnoise Fahrvergnugen

964 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 24 Oct 2005, 10:36 am

#421001

I rev my engine at least 1000 rpm past it's peak power because it's proven faster than changing to a higher gear. I've held 2nd down a short straight in in the Grafton hillclimb and third down the back straight at Wakefield park and compared the times to changing up and it's just not worth the time loss.

The other point is high revs are feel more aggressive and more fun when you're trying to go your hardest. The engine also sounds good at high revs which is cool for the drive and the spectators.

I suggest listening to Greg Wards hillclimb car at wide open throttle at max revs. It sounds like no other volkswagen.

If you want longevity and not revs then stick to a stocker and go and read anther post.

CYA CT

esratrams

shiftyvw Wolfsburg Wizard

523 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 24 Oct 2005, 7:36 pm

#421189

I never said you were full of shit vdubya, just that you were an asshole! Theres a difference lol.

I know macca and morgans car but im planning on less motor and more gas for a similar result.

testing 1 2 3...

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 2 Sep 2006, 12:50 am

#529247

Any more updates, this was such an interesting thread.👍

malcolm Insano Dub Head

812 posts · joined Nov 2004 · 2 Sep 2006, 3:03 am

#529270

looks like everyones going subie

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 2 Sep 2006, 10:57 am

#529314

We better start 'how to install a radiator' and 'how to build a gearbox' threads!

Pay your debts, CxxT

lugnuts Custom Title Time!

1,070 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 2 Sep 2006, 10:25 pm

#529546

lugnuts wrote:Hmmmm,i was thinking of staying out of this until i was a bit further along, BUT i just cant help myself,im gathering parts for a stroker ive got everything roughly priced at $9300,so far ive got a new mag case,new CB 82mm crank,DRLA 48 tri-jets with 40 vents,Mallory Unilite i havnt got the spring kit yet,and an 1 5/8 side facing header from A-1 should be sailing my way as we speak,so im into about $3000 with another 6-7 to go,theres no labour in these costs so machining and ballancing are additional.Anyway this is MY combo.
1. 2276 = 94 x 82
2.FK-8
3.42 x 37 AJs or DRD heads
4.9.5:1 comp
5.48 DRLA tri-jets 40 vents
6.1 5/8 side facing headers by A-1
7.CB 5.4" H beam rods with ARP 2000 bolts
8.Kennedy stage 1 with Daiken disc
9.CE straight cuts
10.H.D. alloy push rods
11.26mm Shadeck pump full flowed
12.Schubeck composite lifters
13.Mallory Unilite with spring kit
14.CB or Berg 1.4 ratio rockers
15.German flywheel lightened reground
16.36 horse doghouse shroud
17.Berg fan
18.Static ballanced pistons pins rings rods
19.Dynamically ballanced crank flywheel cluctch pulley gears.
So there u have it,should be all sitting on my bench end of 06,after that i need another $2400 for a Pro-street box,steady fellas i bruise easilly :kiss

[ Edited on 16-10-2005 by lugnuts ]

Update.Changes.
CB Performance Aluminium case will work with the Schubeck lifters a bit better,ile keep the AS41 for a spare.
This is what i have so far.
42x37.5 AJs Streetport heads 60cc with ported straight manifolds manifolds,for more info goto lowbugget.com.
$1400 in measuring tools
48 dell tri-jets with stacks of jets to play with.
Schubeck ceramic lifters.
A-1 1 5/8 sidewiinder header ceramic coated with O2 bung.
CB 4340 82mm crank
Mallory Unilite with spring kit NO vacuum advance.
CB 5.4in H beams arp 2000 bolts
CB forged 1.4 rockers.
GWD carb linkage
Engle FK-8 clearanced for a stroker.
Latest guesstimate $15g 8.5 down 6.5 togo:P:thumb

[ Edited on 3-9-2006 by lugnuts ]

Dont listen to what they say,just watch what they do.Oh yeah ive NEVER finished anything ive started.:o

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 3 Sep 2006, 11:06 am

#529693

Has anybody here in Oz played with the new big throat 44mm Kadrons?

Pay your debts, CxxT

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 24 Feb 2007, 8:49 pm

#575241

Any more updates ?

BiX Veteran Volks Folk

2,499 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 27 Feb 2007, 12:08 pm

#575749

My New engine should go in next week, so hopefully get some dyno figures etc in a few months once run in and properly tuned. But basic specs

- New mag case (stay within PRC if ever i want to go down that road)
- cb 69mm crank- offset ground 72mm stroke
- 94mm barrels and pistons (with crank gives 1999cc's)
- 10.6:1 CR
- Engle 120 cam
- 1.25:1 rockers
- CB wedge ports
- 48 ida's
- Will run a simple 009 for now (msd or mallory will be in, when my bank accoutn recovers)
- plus all the other little bits and pieces all new except for second hand german tinware.

I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 27 Feb 2007, 3:11 pm

#575787

BiX wrote:My New engine should go in next week, so hopefully get some dyno figures etc in a few months once run in and properly tuned. But basic specs

- New mag case (stay within PRC if ever i want to go down that road)
- cb 69mm crank- offset ground 72mm stroke
- 94mm barrels and pistons (with crank gives 1999cc's)
- 10.6:1 CR
- Engle 120 cam
- 1.25:1 rockers
- CB wedge ports
- 48 ida's
- Will run a simple 009 for now (msd or mallory will be in, when my bank accoutn recovers)
- plus all the other little bits and pieces all new except for second hand german tinware.

And you thought that motor bike was fast!

westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

BiX Veteran Volks Folk

2,499 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 27 Feb 2007, 4:14 pm

#575801

It should be resonably quick for a sub 2L motor, but i think the bike may still have the edge 😀

Also it will run with a std L bug SSP gb, but with a 1.44 3rd.......

I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 27 Feb 2007, 6:44 pm

#575843

Hey Bix,

Who did the work on the crank?

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

BiX Veteran Volks Folk

2,499 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 28 Feb 2007, 8:18 am

#576005

Crankshaft Engineering (daves old workplace?)

I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 28 Feb 2007, 8:19 am

#576006

👍

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

newoldmanx Wolfsburg Wizard

468 posts · joined Aug 2006 · 28 Feb 2007, 8:50 am

#576014

Hi all, i have bought this type 1 2275cc engine from delux66(damo), it was originally built by Stan Pobjoy over 10 years ago, he just simply rebuilt with new crank and cam bearings, new piston rings and new gasket kit. The engine has a SPG Roller crank in it. I have a list of all measurements obtained in the build: 2275cc Roller Engine Assembly tolerances:

Camshaft Axial Play : 0.06mm
Camshaft gear to crank gear backlash: 0.02mm
Cylinder Shims: 1.15mm
Crankshaft endplay: 0.09mm
Deck height TDC: #1 1.78mm #2 1.81mm #3 1.78mm #4 1.76mm
Head CC: #1 67cc #2 67cc #3 67cc #4 67cc
Calculated Compression Ratio: 8.1:1
Total valve lift : 0.460” or 11.68mm
Valve geometry set @ Half total lift: 5.84mm
Stroke: 82mm
Bore: 94mm
Rocker ratio: 1.25:1
Crank mains: 0.25mm under ID, OD standard
see pics of the build here
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=55742
ill try and get some more specs

all i know is its the best vw donk i've ever owned runs awsome pulls hard sounds awsome (through the cannons)my neighbours prob dont think so
wadda ya rekon??

[ Edited on 27-2-2007 by newoldmanx ]

its just a car for f*%k sake

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 28 Feb 2007, 10:44 am

#576041

Get rid of the cannons! Fit some conventional pipes and it will run even better... and be quieter

[ Edited on 28-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]

Pay your debts, CxxT

newoldmanx Wolfsburg Wizard

468 posts · joined Aug 2006 · 28 Feb 2007, 11:15 am

#576055

VWCOOL wrote:Get rid of the cannons! Fit some conventional pipes and it will run even better... and be quieter

[ Edited on 28-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]

personally... i love the noise could be louder
but can you tell me
1. why it would run better
2. by better do you mean more power or more reliable
3. would a 4into1 header with stinger be the go?? what size pipes 1 5/8's???

its just a car for f*%k sake

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 28 Feb 2007, 7:15 pm

#576192

newoldmanx wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:Get rid of the cannons! Fit some conventional pipes and it will run even better... and be quieter

[ Edited on 28-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]
personally... i love the noise could be louder
but can you tell me
1. why it would run better
2. by better do you mean more power or more reliable
3. would a 4into1 header with stinger be the go?? what size pipes 1 5/8's???

Put reaaallly simply, at the moment it's running like two badly-tuned two cylinder engines joined together by an ignition system

Pay your debts, CxxT

newoldmanx Wolfsburg Wizard

468 posts · joined Aug 2006 · 1 Mar 2007, 8:55 am

#576275

do you mean like a pair of well tuned harley's running on one cdi

do you have any "informed" answers for any of my three questions.

maybe something like "exhaust speeds help scavenging in the cylinders" or something plausable

its just a car for f*%k sake

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 1 Mar 2007, 9:11 am

#576277

newoldmanx wrote:do you mean like a pair of well tuned harley's running on one cdi

do you have any "informed" answers for any of my three questions.

maybe something like "exhaust speeds help scavenging in the cylinders" or something plausable

well-tuned harley? is there such a thing?!

If they are anything like the cannons I know of, the pipe lenghts etc are woeful and what you said about exhaust speeds is on the right track

Pay your debts, CxxT

newoldmanx Wolfsburg Wizard

468 posts · joined Aug 2006 · 1 Mar 2007, 10:09 am

#576285

yeah a well tuned harley runs like a badly tuned two cyl engine😎

its just a car for f*%k sake

lugnuts Custom Title Time!

1,070 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 20 May 2007, 12:54 am

#592313

lugnuts wrote:
lugnuts wrote:Hmmmm,i was thinking of staying out of this until i was a bit further along, BUT i just cant help myself,im gathering parts for a stroker ive got everything roughly priced at $9300,so far ive got a new mag case,new CB 82mm crank,DRLA 48 tri-jets with 40 vents,Mallory Unilite i havnt got the spring kit yet,and an 1 5/8 side facing header from A-1 should be sailing my way as we speak,so im into about $3000 with another 6-7 to go,theres no labour in these costs so machining and ballancing are additional.Anyway this is MY combo.
1. 2276 = 94 x 82
2.FK-8 (x)
3.42 x 37 AJs or DRD heads
4.9.5:1 comp (x)
5.48 DRLA tri-jets 40 vents
6.1 5/8 side facing headers by A-1
7.CB 5.4" H beam rods with ARP 2000 bolts
8.Kennedy stage 1 with Daiken disc
9.CE straight cuts
10.H.D. alloy push rods (x)
11.26mm Shadeck pump full flowed
12.Schubeck composite lifters
13.Mallory Unilite with spring kit
14.CB 1.4 ratio rockers
15.German flywheel lightened reground
16.36 horse doghouse shroud
17.Berg fan (x)
18.Static ballanced pistons pins rings rods
19.Dynamically ballanced crank flywheel cluctch pulley gears.
So there u have it,should be all sitting on my bench end of 06,after that i need another $2400 for a Pro-street box,steady fellas i bruise easilly :kiss

[ Edited on 16-10-2005 by lugnuts ]
Update.Changes.
CB Performance Aluminium case will work with the Schubeck lifters a bit better,ile keep the AS41 for a spare.
This is what i have so far.
42x37.5 AJs Streetport heads 60cc with ported straight manifolds manifolds,for more info goto lowbugget.com.
$1400 in measuring tools
48 dell tri-jets with stacks of jets to play with.
Schubeck ceramic lifters.
A-1 1 5/8 sidewiinder header ceramic coated with O2 bung.
CB 4340 82mm crank
Mallory Unilite with spring kit NO vacuum advance.
CB 5.4in H beams arp 2000 bolts
CB forged 1.4 rockers.
GWD carb linkage
Engle FK-8 clearanced for a stroker.
Latest guesstimate $15g 8.5 down 6.5 togo:P:thumb

[ Edited on 3-9-2006 by lugnuts ]

Ok,so im only waiting on a starter alternator and a muffler,the build starts mid June.Cam is now a V-26 like a W-120 for ratio rockers.All rotating assembly has been ballanced to a nats ball by Crankshaft Engineering with paperwork for before and after ballance.
Also acquired
LM-1 wideband with rpm converter
Berg oil filter kit and vented VCs
Stage 1 clutch
Daiken super disc
Lite flywheel german
CSP headstuds
CE straight cuts
BMD pulley system (for the #ank factor)
and really too much stuff to list,#hit loads of the little stuff and vw tools,everything new except the carbs.Just have to do a preassembly before my hols so i can order the manton pushrods.I also changed my CR from 9.5:1 to 9:1 by machining the piston crown,why because i wanted to keep my chosen deck height of 0.045,and because i can :P

[ Edited on 19-5-2007 by lugnuts ]

Dont listen to what they say,just watch what they do.Oh yeah ive NEVER finished anything ive started.:o